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Rogue "Niche" according to Holinka

I hate MoP Can next Xpac come out? Why is combat popular How hard is this to balance

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#61 Flanktwo2

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:44 PM

the only thing that does any kind of dmg is a trinket procc, find weakness crit evis.

Every other ability we have is a joke. Thats the only thing that makes blades dance frightening is the possibility of fast back to back evis crits.

Ambush does no dmg whatsover.

#62 Creamo

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:39 PM

Perhaps mut or combat is the answer next season.

#63 KPul

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostCreamo, on 17 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Perhaps mut or combat is the answer next season.
thats like me saying perhaps guardian is the answer next season
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#64 The_Observer

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostCreamo, on 17 June 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Perhaps mut or combat is the answer next season.
Both have just as many problems as sub.

#65 Ashleylol

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

lol all i have to say is that our "niche" being stealth is a fucking joke. It's only that way anyway because we have no damage outside of dance/stealth whatsoever, not to mention a druid literally spamming his faerie fire keybind till his fingers hurt which is 40 seconds long anyways, and like your healer is going to have time to dispel it when there is so much other stuff to dispell, so the "niche" clearly needs some re-thinking, OR you just buff hemo+backstab by a considerable amount to make them worth the energy they cost tbh
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#66 Ashleylol

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

also forgot to mention that so many other classes have stealth; such as mages, druids, shamans (with symbiosis), priests, hunters, the list goes on../.
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#67 Randomguy

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

It would be interesting to know which PvP mechanics affect rogues more than other classes as rogue dmg in PvP isn't too bad (top 10 for all three Specs) and perhaps change those mechanics.

Obvious are things like Recuperate/Kidney Shot which reduce the number of Eviscerates (Eviscerate does ~21%  of rogue's overall dmg).
Stuff like Gouge, Feint and Sap(example: sapping a blinded target while ShD) also reduces the number of Combo Points generated and therefore the number of Eviscerates.
Another thing is our ~42% of overall dmg that comes from passives (including Deadly Poison - almost only used by Assasination rogues in PvP) and rogue's uptime on  ranged targets and healers (mobility sucks when compared with certain other melees).
VS plate we have to deal with parry and high armor, monks also have a 15% increased chance to parry (glyph I think).

I'm sure I missed a lot of things but basically we trade utility(gouge,...)/survivability(feint) and even mobility (the horrible shit that is BoS).

I also think Blizzard justified removing crit talents by stating that crit sucked for PvE in comparison to mastery and haste,... well gess what rogues in Cata stacked crit even though it was the worst stat...

Tl;dr: Rogues have to use resources for utility/survivability other classes don't (as much)

#68 KPul

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

I liked the way damage worked back in cata.. Backstab and Ambush had the same damage but the only thing that made ambush more worthwhile was the fact that it had 100% crit.     And then energywise hemo and backstab had relatively the same damage also but backstab had a bonus to crit chance.
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#69 Hektic

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:45 PM

The absolute last thing I'd want is for Rogue to be a class with high sustained damage, the game has already become homogenized enough without gutting one of the only classes that can still pull out a 'fun' playstyle. That would only exist if certain other classes weren't glaringly overpowered but the rogue kit itself is pretty good. Personally I think a big problem is a lot of the most vocal people on class balance now are people who started in cata and are just progressively more used to the moronic cooldown spam tunnelvisioning thats been going on since then. if you watch apparent 'top level' streams and the extent of their strat is 'who are we going on' you know the games gone completely down the toilet.  On a related rant i'd love to see the endgame 'damage done' meter gone from the game as this completely skews peoples view on class power and playstyle.

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:55 PM

View PostKPul, on 17 June 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

I liked the way damage worked back in cata.. Backstab and Ambush had the same damage but the only thing that made ambush more worthwhile was the fact that it had 100% crit. And then energywise hemo and backstab had relatively the same damage also but backstab had a bonus to crit chance.

This^

#71 Flanktwo2

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostHektic, on 17 June 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

The absolute last thing I'd want is for Rogue to be a class with high sustained damage, the game has already become homogenized enough without gutting one of the only classes that can still pull out a 'fun' playstyle. That would only exist if certain other classes weren't glaringly overpowered but the rogue kit itself is pretty good. Personally I think a big problem is a lot of the most vocal people on class balance now are people who started in cata and are just progressively more used to the moronic cooldown spam tunnelvisioning thats been going on since then. if you watch apparent 'top level' streams and the extent of their strat is 'who are we going on' you know the games gone completely down the toilet.  On a related rant i'd love to see the endgame 'damage done' meter gone from the game as this completely skews peoples view on class power and playstyle.

How is that?  Cata playstyle was just fun. S9 and s10 rogue were totally fine and even a bit underpowerd. It's the playstyle we(or me) like.

It's not fun  playing a pve 5 cp slice rupture recup kiddney evis rotation.
It's fun having to set up a kill forever and eating one cc and starting at 0.
It's not fun (for the other team as well) going for a resealth every time you don't have dance cloak or trinket up.
It's not fun spending half your energy bar to hit for  8k when my backstab did 3 times that dmg in Cata.
It's not fun sitting in roots all day because we only have 2 vanished and one cloak that we can't waist on offense.
Medicore burst, worst sustained damage, some of the lowest survival, lowest melee mobility and medicore control.

Nobody here wants legendary, Vial, shuriken toss all game, Cloak and dagger playstyle.

What we want is a bit more mobility (shadowstep breaking fucking roots on a 24s cooldown really that much to ask for?)

And a bit more sustained so our CP builder don't hit for WoTLK numbers.

That is all.

#72 Maumaux

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

Not sure if anyone has noticed but Sin Rogue is the exact answer to the sustained damage problem. People just need to get out of the Sub or Die mentality. Enjoy your class play a different spec. I agree that Sub rogue is kinda blah but its in the damn name.

Subtlety Rogue should be the control and stealth, pop out for kills when they are low  then back into the shadows. I agree that isnt how it is now but that is the premise.

Assassination Rogue is tons of sustained damage with HUGE burst options with all of the pros of Sub for most part ( cant dance sap a blind target is about it). Ya when you blow your 3 minute or 2 min CD you have to wait forever for them to be up but envenom and rupture alone cause insane pressure and you can actaully switch targets and still be damaging the other player with posions. one application of deadly poison left on a target to run its course over 12 secs is like 70k damage and you dont even have to be on that target not to mention with rupture ticking also that is like another 70k.


Just my 2 cents. Rogue is fine. We are not warriors. Yes we will die quick but if played correctly and proper setups we can kill someone in like 6 secs flat. Sub is weak right now but at least we have other options.

We really shouldnt be out in the open the entire game either. we should be lurking in stealth waiting for the right moment and making the other team uneasy because they cant see you, wondering when you will pop and who you will pop on. If you want to wreck face all rambo play a Monk, warrior or hunter.

#73 meshu

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostMaumaux, on 17 June 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:


rupture alone cause insane pressure

Rupture damage is a joke, in all specs Assa included.
You clearly didn't played it in this patch

View PostAcerMVP, on 06 August 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

You're a RBG hero, you have no say in Arenas. You only say this because you can kill some one with one button in RBG's and not be killed, sorry buddy, but RBGS =/= Arenas.
Please review signature rules: http://www.arenajunk...-rules-2272014/

#74 skeetFace

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostMaumaux, on 17 June 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Assassination Rogue is tons of sustained damage with HUGE burst options with all of the pros of Sub for most part ( cant dance sap a blind target is about it). Ya when you blow your 3 minute or 2 min CD you have to wait forever for them to be up but envenom and rupture alone cause insane pressure and you can actaully switch targets and still be damaging the other player with posions. one application of deadly poison left on a target to run its course over 12 secs is like 70k damage and you dont even have to be on that target not to mention with rupture ticking also that is like another 70k.


Just my 2 cents. Rogue is fine. We are not warriors. Yes we will die quick but if played correctly and proper setups we can kill someone in like 6 secs flat. Sub is weak right now but at least we have other options.

Nice joke Just play rogue dude.
I'm sorry to get you out of your poney world but assination suck because without shadowblade The damage is ridiculous and mobility suck ... 70K I want to see it
You don't play rogues to say that.

#75 Randomguy

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:57 PM

View Postmeshu, on 17 June 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:


Rupture damage is a joke, in all specs Assa included.
You clearly didn't played it in this patch

He probably meant Rupture+ Deadly Poison+ Proccs (Venomous Wounds?)

#76 AcerMVP

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 06:59 PM

Maumax, don't worry about those two, they clearly haven't played assassination correctly... Assassination rogues are just missing a few things just like every other spec. While Sub and Combat have burst damage, Sin rogues have passive damage. All of the specs have energy regen issues, its not the regen, its just the amount of energy most of the abilities use. Then there's the survivability and mobility issues, but I don't run into that issue that much.

Edited by AcerMVP, 17 June 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#77 Fatbelly

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

why the fuck are people saying "sin" instead of mut??????
www.twitch.tv/fatbellyx/old

#78 Sykoh

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:35 PM

i once told myself if i could kill one man in this world, it would be ghostcrawler

i was wrong

holinka, you fucking terrorist

#79 Maumaux

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostFatbelly, on 17 June 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

why the fuck are people saying "sin" instead of mut??????
Cause its Hip and Swag (Lol sorry had to it =). Better than Ass or Mut, we arent dogs.

#80 Maumaux

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

View Postmeshu, on 17 June 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Rupture damage is a joke, in all specs Assa included.
You clearly didn't played it in this patch
I said envenom and rupture but yes venomous wounds proc up to 10k each tick plus the rupture tick plus the deadly poison tick.




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