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Rogue "Niche" according to Holinka

I hate MoP Can next Xpac come out? Why is combat popular How hard is this to balance

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#1 KPul

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:08 AM

This is the exact reason why rogues will never be balanced.   WTH is he even saying here? The way he says this suggests that rogue matches are won purely because of being in stealth. We are forced to go for so many restealths because we are useless outside of it.  I would happily trade damage from my find weakness windows to have more sustained damage

Heres the conundrum -  

We cannot have great mobility or damage because we are unseen by our enemy players til we are on top of them.

Our burst is going to be constantly nerfed because of us not being able to be seen until we have a target stun locked, and no one enjoys popping defensive cooldowns in an opener.

Our survivability is going to suffer because we can avoid a swifty one shot macro by popping our Hey mongo, go fuck yourself while i vanish spell.

Our sustained damage cannot be high because it would be unfair for a rogue to be threatening outside of stealth only to disappear and pop cooldowns when yours are down.

-----------------------------------------------

Before i get flamed for this because everyone hates being stunlocked, if the rogue niche is supposed to be about control and stealth.  Then why did we have Cheap shot / garrote nerfed and why did we get a ninja nerf that allows us to randomly be seen across the map this patch?

Also if stealth is supposed to be our niche then why arent there spammable no CD moves that can ruin the niche of shapeshifting from druids, or preventing a pally from using bubble, or stopping a mage from blinking?

Im also confused on if our niche is control then why do ferals have a cooldown to match every single CC ability we have?
(Cheapshot | Pounce)  (Kidney | Maim)   (Blind | Cyclone)   (Shadowdance, spammable Cheap shots, 10 sec duration | Incarnation, spammable pounces, 30 second duration)   (Gouge | Mighty Bash/Disorienting Roar) (Shadowstep Kick | Skull Bash)   (Sap, only usable out of combat | Hibernate, only usable on beasts) (Crippling poison | Infected wounds)  (Paralytic Poison Shiv effect | Entangling Roots)  (Garrote | Faerie Fire Silence***)

*** Rogues have to glyph into cheap shot and garrote to make their CCs worthwhile so dont try saying i cant use a glyphable CC as a point of arguement

If anyone can name any other CC's rogues have feel free to add them in so i can list things like typhoon, faerie fire, etc.  

I have played a little bit with feral druids, nothing competitive, i do realize that some of their CC's arent as on demand as they are for a rogue or dont last as long, but does that warrant doing near double our damage and having half of those Abilities on a shorter Cooldown?   Feral druids have stealth, they have more mobility, they have more damage, they have the ability to play a healer for a duration of the match, they have the ability to burst a player down solo, they have access to symbiosis.   I'm no game dev with a master plan, but w/e niche the ferals have, can rogues have it also?

You would think after 12 seasons of apologies and buffs / nerfs that they would hire tournament level players to assist in balancing the game.  I would have faith in a game balanced by a team of devs who actually play the game at a competitive level.
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#2 varellz

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:21 AM

i feel with you bro.

#3 WildeHilde

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:22 AM

Because of stealth rogues are probably the hardest class to balance. If you ask players what a balanced outcome is to a rogue team opener the opinions would greatly differ. If rogues can kill players in the opener they are overpowered, if they can't they are useless and the line in between (force something, not everything) is thin, very thin.

#4

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:27 AM

Say that rogues are balanced...

and everyone looses their minds..

#5 varellz

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

maybe change cnd so it works with dance but only for 1 "opener" so you can jump 1 time while dancing but to compensate change it for subterfuge too so its not as weird as before.

#6 KPul

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:33 AM

I just dont understand why they cant shift our damage away from 1 shot macros and Cooldown stacking and more towards buffing our basic abilities.   it would make more sense to have it that way because being in stealth would allow us to get on an opponent and then the damage that you have after you connect on your opponent would be the same until your Pvp trinket is used.

To put it into PvE terms for the blind luck chance that a blizzard dev is reading this,  I think its absurd that a rogue during a burst window (in pvp gear) can frontload anywhere between 140-170k dps only to have it fall to 45-55k dps in sustained damage.   Is that really what you want out of the rogue class to be a gimmicky one shot class like that?   Why couldnt it be more of a front load of 120k dps and fall to a sustained of 80k dps?

I remember reading something about how Ghostcrawler compared rogues to First person shooters and said they wanted rogues to be more like a sub machine gun than a shot gun.   Please explain to me why a sub machine gun would randomly hit like a bazooka for 10 seconds and then hit like a super soaker 50 seconds after.

Edited by KPul, 16 June 2013 - 01:35 AM.

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#7 Conviqx

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:34 AM

It's hilariously depressing to see that after all this time, the people who "balance" and work on the game are still the people who know the least

Edited by Conviqx, 16 June 2013 - 01:34 AM.

http://www.twitch.tv/conviq

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#8 Braindance

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:35 AM

I don't get what you're asking for after reading the post sorry. Feral level damage? More sustained damage? More mobility? What?

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#9 KPul

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostBraindance, on 16 June 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

I don't get what you're asking for after reading the post sorry. Feral level damage? More sustained damage? More mobility? What?

Thats the thing, I'm not asking for a specific buff or nerf.  I'm just asking for them to not wear horse blinders while balancing classes.   They gather up all the complaints about certain classes and generally get a few great ideas for what could balance a class, and instead of picking one of the five options to balance a class out they take the entire pool of nerfs and throw them in at the same time.

EDIT: What I mean by balancing with horse blinders is this.   They hear complaints about rogue mobility because rogues are pissing and moaning about how rogues cannot catch hunters because of an undispellable root.  And what they will do is they will not only buff rogue mobility, but they will also nerf the thing that rogues were complaining about in the first place.   So we will come out with way more mobility than we actually needed.   And after buffing our mobility it will be an indirect nerf to classes that have lesser versions of roots like mages/druids/shamans.   (Purely using this as an example of how blizzards balancing appears, no new changes on the PTR from what ive seen)

Edited by KPul, 16 June 2013 - 01:47 AM.

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#10 varellz

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:43 AM

View PostKPul, on 16 June 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Thats the thing, I'm not asking for a specific buff or nerf.  I'm just asking for them to not wear horse blinders while balancing classes.   They gather up all the complaints about certain classes and generally get a few great ideas for what could balance a class, and instead of picking one of the five options to balance a class out they take the entire pool of nerfs and throw them in at the same time.

not for hunters! ;D

#11 Creamo

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:06 AM

View PostKPul, on 16 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

Im also confused on if our niche is control then why do ferals have a cooldown to match every single CC ability we have?
(Cheapshot | Pounce)  (Kidney | Maim)   (Blind | Cyclone)   (Shadowdance, spammable Cheap shots, 10 sec duration | Incarnation, spammable pounces, 30 second duration)   (Gouge | Mighty Bash/Disorienting Roar) (Shadowstep Kick | Skull Bash)   (Sap, only usable out of combat | Hibernate, only usable on beasts) (Crippling poison | Infected wounds)  (Paralytic Poison Shiv effect | Entangling Roots)  (Garrote | Faerie Fire Silence***)

Not here to flame or argue, but there's a few things of note here. Incarnation is a talent. Mighty Bash is a talent. Disorienting Roar is a talent. I won't even start on the FF silence thing.

I really don't see how Hibernate is the same thing as Sap, and you may not know that skull bash doesn't have the range of shadowstep kick, but you've been informed! Blind and cyclone are a little bit different, and you missed some stuff like prep, vanish (ferals can while under effect of incarnation but it's nothing near the same as vanish), and of course cloak.

By no means do I mean to white knight ferals, I quit playing it awhile back, and frankly can't stand it anymore.... but yeah. They're kind of alot different.

I do sympathize with the rest of your post though. Rogues always get overbuffed and subsequently overnerfed. Most of the rogues I know feel the same, and my rogue has been shelved for awhile now too.

View Postjaimex, on 25 November 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

I don't even fotm

#12 ohnoes

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:31 AM

still unsure why people waste time with holinka, he's clearly a fucking idiot, look what his did this season.

this doesn't have to do specifically with him but blizzard in general, but each season has progressingly gotten worse and it doesn't look at all like it's heading in the correct direction.

as a side note regarding rogues, you'd think after two seasons in row now being the worst class(discounting 5.2, not the end of the season), they'd realize we are shit and need something to compensate for what other classes have received/currently have, the fact that he says "your visibility" is bad further proves my point that he is "clearly a fucking idiot"

#13 Marshmellow

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:54 AM

View PostZerlog, on 16 June 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Say that rogues are balanced...

and everyone looses their minds..

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#14 KPul

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostCreamo, on 16 June 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Not here to flame or argue, but there's a few things of note here. Incarnation is a talent. Mighty Bash is a talent. Disorienting Roar is a talent. I won't even start on the FF silence thing.

I really don't see how Hibernate is the same thing as Sap, and you may not know that skull bash doesn't have the range of shadowstep kick, but you've been informed! Blind and cyclone are a little bit different, and you missed some stuff like prep, vanish (ferals can while under effect of incarnation but it's nothing near the same as vanish), and of course cloak.

By no means do I mean to white knight ferals, I quit playing it awhile back, and frankly can't stand it anymore.... but yeah. They're kind of alot different.

I do sympathize with the rest of your post though. Rogues always get overbuffed and subsequently overnerfed. Most of the rogues I know feel the same, and my rogue has been shelved for awhile now too.

Since you quoted an entire segment of my post regarding CC abilities. please tell me, member, how cloak of shadows/preparation/vanish are crowd control abilities.  

sure using vanish allows access to cheap shot / garrote but then that would be like me saying ferocious bite is a CC ability because it allows access to an instant cyclone.

And outside of the very beginning of the match, after avoiding 20 targetable AoE spells that could possibly knock me out sooner than i want to be, sap is used about as often mid arena as hibernate is.  Competant players at high mmr know when a sap is coming and take precautions to prevent it.
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#15 Bootzx

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:01 AM

Not a shot at anyone.

Everyone has their own play style, maybe its just not the play style you enjoyed in a previous expansion or maybe you just don't like the fact some classes are really out of control. But you could always just play another class until this one fits what you want again or adapt and take this time to try and work on what you could improve on.

#16 Prolifics

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:22 AM

Rogue's niche is "Stealth"?

.. What in the FUCK is that supposed to mean? That's the most generic, meaningless statement I've ever heard.

#17 Capers

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:27 AM

Part of this whole CD obsessed expansion is because of people like Bashiok (I'm assuming he's a dev but idk.) He even made a twitter post to Ghostcrawler about how "CDs should be a huge change in damage." GC was responding or asking (I forget which) about possibly making CD for longer durations and/or shorter CDs, but being less extreme. Bashiok responded saying that he feels CDs should be a huge change in damage as opposed to just a small-med change.




Also I don't get how Holinka can honestly say that a rogue's niche is in stealth, when pretty much every spell in this game now has a fucking 100 yard AoE component attached to it. And fuck Faerie Fire. How has this not even been changed yet?

I made a post on the forums a while back about Faerie Fire being retarded for rogues, and all I got were people even worse than me saying how rogues are "OMG STUNLOCK YOU 100%-0" over and over. Not to mention this was in 5.1.

I've always defended blizzard/been optimistic, but I'm pretty much done now. When other things are imbalanced, at least you could enjoy yourself. This time around, it's not even fun anymore. I'm not up to glad level play, but even at my level, it's just not fun, especially with hunters running rampant.
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#18 Dragomir

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:27 AM

Hey, there's also pvp pet battles for a good time!

#19 Abidalzim

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:37 AM

View PostKPul, on 16 June 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

If anyone can name any other CC's rogues have feel free to add them in so i can list things like typhoon, faerie fire, etc.
Smoke bomb?
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#20 Reirei

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:42 AM

Trollinka strikes again


does he even realize that 90% of the match you can't even stay stealthed, if i manage to go in stealth, my team is playing 2v3, HOW HARD IS IT TO UNDERSTAND?

we should be about CCs? WHAT A FKING JOKE, every class and their mother has as many CCs if not more than rogue

lastly, if rogues are about stealth WHY THE FUCK IS FAERIE FIRE STILL IN GAME? why the fuck everyone has so much aoe?

inb4 subterfuge, yeah that helps only so much with our shit moblity

oh our survivability is low because of stealth? JK DIE IN VANISH ANYWAY

if rogues were truly about stealth and CC, then

1. druids/priests/hunters/mages shouldn't have stealth at all
2. rogue stealth should be so high that you can't see them no matter what, unless they literary stand on top of you
3. should be still be able to stealth while under FF debuff
4. SHOLD HAVE AOE CC and at least 70% snare
5. should have CCs that last at least 8 sec (not just blind)
6. should have increased movement speed while in stealth baseline
7. should have huge dmg reduction while in stealth
etc.

obviously, half of this would be just retarded, so his whole argument about rogues being about stealth and CC is RETARDED

no wonder rogues are shit for half of the expansion now and they still can't figure why nobody wants to play them, WELL FUCK, go roll one and try to play it

nobody wanted CnD, nobody wanted buff to sang vein, NOBODY asked for dmg buff to ST, ppl just asked for baseline prep and buff to shs

what did they do? nerfed shuriken toss so we can't slow enemy anymore which nerfed our moblity by a lot, added some OP crap like CnD and basically removed it 2 months later including major dmg and CC nerf

fuck this game, fuck devs of this game, my sub ran out end of may, i thought, hey maybe i should resub after all and try again, maybe it won't be as bad as s12, JK HUNTER BUFFS, ARE YOU FKING KIDDING ME?

*tableflip*

back to LoL, at least that game is somehow balanced

/rantoff
shut up pvp guy




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