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#1 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

For the patches 5.2 and 5.3 few people tested PvP on the PTR and we saw the results. Decisions may look good on paper and most of our feedback is based on how we think it would play out.

Because of that two points from my side:

1.) Blizzard should reward beta testing
Be it free levels for alts, mounts, titles, pets or transmog on the tournament realm but we need some encouragement to get the PvP community to test.

2.) We should test anyways
Even if Blizzard does not test it would be good if many people would test and maybe coordinate some ladder play. The alternative is that we get a patch that needs many hotfixes shortly after. So go testing, make videos and message me, I might be able to link youtube videos to the frontpage and mention PTR streams with the AJ social media accounts.

#2 Virent

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:04 PM

Lately though, you don't even need to test because of how retarded the changes they're making are most people can tell how it'll go without even testing it. It's just obvious to everyone and people do talk about it. They just still don't seem to realise it when they make them.

The simple fact is they don't seem to listen to feedback all that much at all.

Edited by Virent, 12 June 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#3 Hiddenstalke

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

Many changes that looked horrible and/or were thought to ruin/overbuff a class turned out to be quite good so testing is good - you can't judge everything just by reading patch notes.
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#4 Virent

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostHiddenstalke, on 12 June 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Many changes that looked horrible and/or were thought to ruin/overbuff a class turned out to be quite good so testing is good - you can't judge everything just by reading patch notes.

Not everything, no. But everyone knew that the ret buff was over the top and would make ret/disc/hunter overpowered, everyone knew TfB was ridiculous in design and would end up being overpowered. Everyone knew life swap was a bad design and would end up being ridiculous for shadow. Everyone knew MD nerf was a bit too much. Everyone knew that hunters need a 3 trinkets nerf.

And see what happened. They did all the changes and think that hunters having 3 trinkets is balanced and fine.

I can go a long way in making a huge list of things people knew would be ridiculous and ended up being ridiculous because Blizzard went with it anyway.

Edited by Virent, 12 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

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#5 Djandawg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 12 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

For the patches 5.2 and 5.3 few people tested PvP on the PTR and we saw the results. Decisions may look good on paper and most of our feedback is based on how we think it would play out.
2.) We should test anyways
Even if Blizzard does not test it would be good if many people would test and maybe coordinate some ladder play. The alternative is that we get a patch that needs many hotfixes shortly after. So go testing, make videos and message me, I might be able to link youtube videos to the frontpage and mention PTR streams with the AJ social media accounts.

Absolutely not. I will not test a game patch of a million dollar company that releases their product without testing themselves.
I think at this point it is naive to think that they run any pvp tests at all. If they did, they would catch stuff like Hunter stampede, warriors and mages doing too much damage on 5.0/5.1 or 5.3 enhancement one shots.
I am not talking about in depth tests that they should do, that require some variables values alligning to generateall outcomes, like a buff from partner + dmg proc + trinket proc + tailoring proc etc. I am talking about testing the damage of  a guy, pressing a single macro in arena, without setting anything up.That is 5.0 hunter stampede, warrior and mage dmg or 5.3 enhancement one shot. And you can be certain that those have been reported. It just shows that, not only they don't test impacts of stuff like cc , mobility or damage resulting from proc chaining, they don't do elementary tests and they sure ignore the feedback of community when it comes to the most trivial things that they missed due to no testing.

I will use PTR to play classes I don't have and play with friends that are on different factions/realms.

Edited by Djandawg, 12 June 2013 - 03:47 PM.


#6 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:14 PM

Actually most software companies do public beta tests, even the multi billion ones.

#7 Djandawg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 12 June 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

Actually most software companies do public beta tests, even the multi billion ones.
Except this one doesn't do internal testing and/or doesn't use beta feedback for PVP or possibly ignores the information.
It's one of the above, unless you can think of another reason of stampede one shotting people for several months on beta, zillion people reporting it and going live.

Edited by Djandawg, 12 June 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#8 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 12 June 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

[/size]
Absolutely not. I will not test a game patch of a million dollar company that releases their product without testing themselves.
I think at this point it is naive to think that they run any pvp tests at all. If they did, they would catch stuff like Hunter stampede, warriors and mages doing too much damage on 5.0/5.1 or 5.3 enhancement one shots.
I am not talking about in depth tests that they should do, that require some variables values alligning to generateall outcomes, like a buff from partner + dmg proc + trinket proc + tailoring proc etc. I am talking about testing the damage of  a guy, pressing a single macro in arena, without setting anything up.That is 5.0 hunter stampede, warrior and mage dmg or 5.3 enhancement one shot. And you can be certain that those have been reported. It just shows that, not only they don't test impacts of stuff like cc , mobility or damage resulting from proc chaining, they don't do elementary tests and they sure ignore the feedback of community when it comes to the most trivial things that they missed due to no testing.

I will use PTR to play classes I don't have and play with friends that are on different factions/realms.

View PostKreeds, on 12 June 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

yea sure ill go test a game that they dont give a fuck about, infact the last time we all tested their game and told them what needs fixing they did absolutley fuck all. kiss my arse will i test their game...

actually some of the most retarded thing ive seen in a very long time, well done

you do realize its called a PUBLIC TEST REALM, and not a hi come derp around with your friends and then bitch afterwards that aspects of the game that you couldn't be bothered to help test when you had the opportunity to realm? lets say they have maybe 200 internal testers? (i have no idea how many ) how likely do you think they are to find every single bug/problem, and how much high end pvp experience do you think they even have?

now compare that to 10,000 2.2k+ pvpers bothering to log on and spam arena games for a week on the ptr, and feeding back through forums on their experiences. how massively more useful do u think the data they get from that will be?

arrogant idiots like both of you, who dont use the ptr for its actual purpose are one of the main reasons that some completely retarded things go live in this game

View PostWildeHilde, on 12 June 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

1.) Blizzard should reward beta testing
Be it free levels for alts, mounts, titles, pets or transmog on the tournament realm but we need some encouragement to get the PvP community to test.

2.) We should test anyways

from the amount of bitching that goes on through this site daily, i don't really think that the "pvp community" (lold) should need additional incentives to go spam games on the ptr, do you?

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 12 June 2013 - 04:34 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#9 Persephones

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

You just flat out can't expect the devs to completely balance the game when it's so complicated. I have a very hard time believing that any of the devs are even 2400 rated material, so how can they possibly know what the game is like at the top end? Their players know better, because funny enough, they play the game, where as the devs spend most of their time tweaking it. They need help, our help.

I agree that they should reward beta testing in a way, and make it less awful and painful. Perhaps even have a beta realm designated for PvP so we skip the long ass queues of copying characters etc etc.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#10 GrieverZ

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:38 PM

I extensively tested PvP on MoP's beta along with many many other players and a multitude of streamers (Biotox being the main one i followed/collaborated with) with footages of what was wrong with the game at the time. Everything that was wrong with it made it live (and in some cases is still around to this day, BM Hunters for example).

Can you really blame people for not putting efforts into PTRs after this?

#11 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostKreeds, on 12 June 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

Dizzeyo ur a delusional muppet, what the fuck do you think this community has been doing for years, weve all gone on the ptr not just to fuck around but to test and give feedback, and everytime we get shafted...if you can take ur tongue out of blizzards arse for 2 seconds you might see the same way many of us do to..
i very much doubt that from other comments by people here, but do keep complaining for the sake of complaining anyway

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#12 Djandawg

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

actually some of the most retarded thing ive seen in a very long time, well done

you do realize its called a PUBLIC TEST REALM, and not a hi come derp around with your friends and then bitch afterwards that aspects of the game that you couldn't be bothered to help test when you had the opportunity to realm? lets say they have maybe 200 internal testers? (i have no idea how many ) how likely do you think they are to find every single bug/problem, and how much high end pvp experience do you think they even have?

now compare that to 10,000 2.2k+ pvpers bothering to log on and spam arena games for a week on the ptr, and feeding back through forums on their experiences. how massively more useful do u think the data they get from that will be?

arrogant idiots like both of you, who dont use the ptr for its actual purpose are one of the main reasons that some completely retarded things go live in this game

played beta, ptr 5.2 and 5.3, reported bunch of things, so did many many people. You quoted me,obviously didn't get a single point and replied anyway.  I will make one more attempt. Do you think stampede going live after 4(?) months of beta, one shotting people every single arena game needs pvp player input? That shows on elementary testing , which is either not done or ignored on purpose. They ignored beta forum posts and other feedback on that also. Many other examples can be made for that.( I made a few on my first post) and I am not talking about mobility, cc etc becoming too strong as they may not be as trivial as one shot testing.

Sheep like you are actually the reason they get away with releasing software without testing or ignoring test results. No matter how hard they fuck up, you find a reason in your infinitesimal mind that it's someone else's fault. How can it be our fault that someone can do 120k dps on 350k health pool, you fucking idiot.


View PostGrieverZ, on 12 June 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I extensively tested PvP on MoP's beta along with many many other players and a multitude of streamers (Biotox being the main one i followed/collaborated with) with footages of what was wrong with the game at the time. Everything that was wrong with it made it live (and in some cases is still around to this day, BM Hunters for example).

Can you really blame people for not putting efforts into PTRs after this?
This and some stuff doesn't even need effort, you go in, something instant hits you for 180k 5 games in a row, you report it, goes live anyway. Same way, I skipped half of s9 and s12 with my main spec because it was not arena capable when the expansion came out, again zillion threads/posts were made on official forums, it didn't help.
For this expansion it is particularly sad because the content is amazing, it could be easily the best pvp expansion if they intervened and fixed quick enough.

Edited by Djandawg, 12 June 2013 - 04:57 PM.


#13 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 12 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

played beta, ptr 5.2 and 5.3, reported bunch of things, so did many many people. You quoted me,obviously didn't get a single point and replied anyway.  I will make one more attempt. Do you think stampede going live after 4(?) months of beta, one shotting people every single arena game needs pvp player input? That shows on elementary testing , which is either not done or ignored on purpose. They ignored beta forum posts and other feedback on that also.
strange that i don't remember this forum being spammed with people complaining how retarded stampede was in pvp on the 5.0 beta

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 12 June 2013 - 04:59 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#14 fant0m8

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostPersephones, on 12 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I have a very hard time believing that any of the devs are even 2400 rated material, so how can they possibly know what the game is like at the top end?

Maybe they could watch some of the many 2400+ players that stream their play literally every day for free? Holinka has actually tweeted about Reckful in the past (I think it was when he was playing SPriest - and Spriests later got nerfed in 5.3).

If they can't experience their game themselves, they should at least watch people playing it at a high level.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#15 Persephones

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:32 PM

Simply watching a stream isn't enough and can very easily get a wrong idea of whats wrong with the game. Fx rock will always complain about paper.

And I have a VERY hard time believing that we've had a lot of people reporting bad PvP changes on the previous PTR realms. Y'know, simply submitting an ingame ticket stating what's wrong is not the right way to go about it, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone by now. It needs to be tweeted or emailed to the right people if something is obviously wrong. Personally I've never gone on the PTR to test PvP changes, mostly because it has been a really awful the few times I tried to test raids with my PVE guild. I just didn't want to go through the mess again.

You can think whatever you want, but you simply can't expect the devs to know everything and sort all the op/buggy things. They don't play the game, at least not even to the same extend that we do, of course we'll know better than them.

Edited by Persephones, 12 June 2013 - 05:33 PM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#16 hoodrych

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 12 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

Maybe they could watch some of the many 2400+ players that stream their play literally every day for free? Holinka has actually tweeted about Reckful in the past (I think it was when he was playing SPriest - and Spriests later got nerfed in 5.3).

If they can't experience their game themselves, they should at least watch people playing it at a high level.

They do? Do you really think the Senior PvP designer doesn't watch "high rated" streams?

The game isn't all about balance at a 2400+ level. The majority of the WoW arena population isn't even close to 2k. The majority are playing 2v2 and are in the 1400-1600 bracket. The game has to be fun and easy to understand (not changing abilities every week) for new players to learn and grow.

Not to mention there is an entire other aspect of the game (PvE) that has a huge player base of it's own who all have different opinions on what are good changes and what aren't. They matter too.

The bottom line is we've seen constant changing to PvP this expansion more than any other. There is effort and they are listening. The game has so many abilities and other factors to consider that the devs are just limited in the amount of changes they can push through.

#17 dionim

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

to be honest, i dont play this game for the competitive part, i play to have fun, i dont give a shit if the game is unbalanced, the only care i have is if im having fun or not, maybe the ptr can give me alot of fun, but as personal experience testing stuff is 99,9% frustating, so i can tell you, if they trust people to test their stuff, they are the most retard company that i have ever seen, ofc there can be Open beta PTR, but at this point (even before releasing a patch notes) a good company would have tested their game alot before opening it to the public, specially because normal people that test stuff and dont like it are more susceptible to stop playing live.

Edited by dionim, 12 June 2013 - 05:48 PM.


#18 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:34 PM

Agreed with Hoodrych. Mass data also helps to track issues.

#19 Railander

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:32 PM

View PostPersephones, on 12 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

You just flat out can't expect the devs to completely balance the game when it's so complicated.
you all defending blizzard cant really be serious. i mean, you just cant be serious.
its not rocket science. i completely understand it was really hard to detect some things before going live, like late cata PHD, RLS or vanguard cleave. those are indeed tricky to detect.

what i am talking about is the OBVIOUS stuff, like blood fear, warrior stuns+silences, stampede. the TOTALLY OBVIOUS stuff.
do you know blizzard's answer on blood fear nerf? I'll somewhat quote what GC said.

Quote

Blood Fear was one of those great ideas on paper but turned out completely out of our scope. The intent was 'use Blood Fear to defend yourself, but use it strategically because it costs a bit of health'.

they didnt even consider it being used offensively. and there you are, trying to defend these people.
they have NO CLUE how to balance classes in pvp generally speaking, because they clearly do not pvp seriously. in fact most of their good changes come from player feedback and thats when they decide to follow feedback.

Edited by Railander, 12 June 2013 - 09:35 PM.

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#20 Moshe

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:41 PM

Unfortunately PvE is the bigger part of this game so every change that sounds cool for PvE gets implemented and then they fix or don't fix them for PvP afterwards. Thats how it is and I wonder how long it takes ppl to realize that.




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