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#41 Dagin

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:50 PM

If this datamining is remotely accurate, I would love to hear a blizzard explanation into how hunters still need a 10% dmg reduction, but Moonkin has no need for it. They gave a 5% nerf to hunters reduction, but completely removed it for locks and moonkin (probably others, this is what I saw so far). Give me some logic blizz!!


The only thing i can think of is that iron hawk is a 3 teir talent and they would have to make a new ability if they removed it. So instead they decided to just nerf it by a percentage. While the others were baked into forms like shadow or moonkin.
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#42 Juvx

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:54 PM

If this datamining is remotely accurate, I would love to hear a blizzard explanation into how hunters still need a 10% dmg reduction, but Moonkin has no need for it. They gave a 5% nerf to hunters reduction, but completely removed it for locks and moonkin (probably others, this is what I saw so far). Give me some logic blizz!!


Hunters are pretty squishy now with 15% can easily go 100-0 with no trinket or detter.. i think 5% is fair. Keep in mind its a TALENT unlike the other 2 classes you mentioned. It might not not even be the best in its tier at 10%.
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#43 hyponikz

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:58 PM

Everything looks good but I don't think the ironhawk nerf was necessary on hunters and I play a mage...their survivability isn't something that needed to be tweaked but the absurd damage that has 100% uptime every time you are in LOS of a huntard.
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#44 GrieverXIII

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

If this datamining is remotely accurate, I would love to hear a blizzard explanation into how hunters still need a 10% dmg reduction, but Moonkin has no need for it. They gave a 5% nerf to hunters reduction, but completely removed it for locks and moonkin (probably others, this is what I saw so far). Give me some logic blizz!!


1 : Iron Hawk is a Talent.
2 : Hunters have close to 0 self healing unlike Locks, Moonkins and Spriests.

Edited by GrieverZ, 12 June 2013 - 02:03 PM.

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#45 Dagin

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:03 PM

Everything looks good but I don't think the ironhawk nerf was necessary on hunters and I play a mage...their survivability isn't something that needed to be tweaked but the absurd damage that has 100% uptime every time you are in LOS of a huntard.


Bm has no rampup time to shit on someone unlike a mage who waits for procs and deep to global someone ;) but yeah hunters have the shitiest survivability of all the classes imo the dmg was the problem and we have the shitiest self healing to boot but the dmg i guess made up for it.
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#46 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:33 PM

1 : Iron Hawk is a Talent.
2 : Hunters have close to 0 self healing unlike Locks, Moonkins and Spriests.

Hunters are pretty squishy now with 15% can easily go 100-0 with no trinket or detter.. i think 5% is fair. Keep in mind its a TALENT unlike the other 2 classes you mentioned. It might not not even be the best in its tier at 10%.


I have to say that I think they must have something else up their sleeve if they are lowering/getting rid of dmg reductions anyways -but besides this point - you do understand that self healing means absolutely dick in terms of the current meta game where a moonkin/spriest/lock/hunter all die equally as fast during a stun/silence. The healing does dick-all if you are ccd while you die. Hunters and locks have more escape tools, while spriests and moonkin have heals, so you can't say that it's a simple balanced thing.

Also, just because it's a talent doesn't mean it has to stay. They are changing talents all over the place - getting rid of some all together even! So if the idea is to take away dmg reduction from classes, then it's bizarre to me to let hunters continue to have a dmg reduction that comes combined with a huge dmg buff for them in iron hawk (no idea what the talent would change to, simply discussing the overall picture here). Keep in mind, I play a hunter - I'm not trying to nerf my alt. I'm just baffled why people think that it's OK for Moonkin/Spriest/Lock to be trainable but for hunters to have a dmg reduction.
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#47 UGotKited

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:55 PM

If for one sec you dont consider bm's 1001 trinkets, when hunters gets stuck in stuns we cant do anything. Sp, druids both have defensives they can pop while stunned.
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#48 Capers

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

If for one sec you dont consider bm's 1001 trinkets, when hunters gets stuck in stuns we cant do anything. Sp, druids both have defensives they can pop while stunned.


The difference is that you don't even need to stun an sp or druid to kill them. You can just turret damage into them. Not to mention hunter CC and mobility coupled with damage.

And your 1001 trinkets is exactly what you do in stuns.... Along with the fact you still do ridiculous damage while stunned because your pet still goes wild.
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#49 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

If for one sec you dont consider bm's 1001 trinkets, when hunters gets stuck in stuns we cant do anything. Sp, druids both have defensives they can pop while stunned.


You make a fair point about barkskin/disperse, I'm merely pointing out that healing being a reason for the damage reduction isn't a fair comparison, since you can't use it while stunned/silenced which is typically when the dmg reduction is needed most.
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#50 GrieverXIII

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

I have to say that I think they must have something else up their sleeve if they are lowering/getting rid of dmg reductions anyways -but besides this point - you do understand that self healing means absolutely dick in terms of the current meta game where a moonkin/spriest/lock/hunter all die equally as fast during a stun/silence. The healing does dick-all if you are ccd while you die. Hunters and locks have more escape tools, while spriests and moonkin have heals, so you can't say that it's a simple balanced thing.


We must be playing a different game with Druids throwing around Lay on Hands (HotW NS Healing Touch) and every other hybrids being able to sustain themselves and their partners almost as well as if they had a healer. 2s/3s experience as MM, might not work so well agains't mongo damage specs but 10% damage reduction won't faire much better in that case anyway.

Also, just because it's a talent doesn't mean it has to stay. They are changing talents all over the place - getting rid of some all together even! So if the idea is to take away dmg reduction from classes, then it's bizarre to me to let hunters continue to have a dmg reduction that comes combined with a huge dmg buff for them in iron hawk (no idea what the talent would change to, simply discussing the overall picture here). Keep in mind, I play a hunter - I'm not trying to nerf my alt. I'm just baffled why people think that it's OK for Moonkin/Spriest/Lock to be trainable but for hunters to have a dmg reduction.


The fact that its a talent means that we give up something for it, wich was my point. Spriests, Boomkins or Warlocks don't give up anything for their healing or current reduction, its baseline.

Hawk isn't a "huge damage buff", its a baseline balancing tool if anything else. Its how they tweak Hunter's PvE damage and allow them to trade damage for mobility. Is Warrior's baseline Battle Stance a "huge damage buff" to you?

Btw, Hunters are close to the easiest class to train right now, only reason they're remotely hard to kill is because of their 1 minute Trinket. Try playing a Marks Hunter agains't Rogue or Mage teams and tell me how hard it is for them to train you when you get Deep'd/Kidney'd multiple time every minutes and can pretty much die in any of t hem with no tools to deal with it. Meanwhile you still eat full dot damage (that pretty much every class has by now) without any self healing to counteract them, while our only defensive cd doesn't even remove or prevent the damage from them completly.

Would be amazing if people started looking at the big picture instead of basing their opinion on the current state of BM, that will (we can only hope) be a thing of the past in 5.4.

Edited by GrieverZ, 12 June 2013 - 04:52 PM.

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#51 fant0m8

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

Glyph of No Escape Increases the ranged critical strike chance of all of your attacks on targets affected by your Freezing Trap by 20%. Major Glyph. 100%. Major Glyph.


isnt it op ? now that mm can wyvern sting and silence


No, it's the shittiest glyph in the game and will remain close to worst even with the buff.

That's the CC trap. Who the fuck is going to trap the kill target with no debuffs/dots on it just to make 1 hit crit? Not to mention giving up a glyph slot for it.
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#52 Niosa

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

So MM gets silencing shot and the ability to use intimidation/binding shot.

Holy shit I'm going to be a god next patch compared to BM Hunters. :duckers:

Good riddance, it's time for the true hunter spec to rise once again.

Edited by Niosa, 12 June 2013 - 05:53 PM.

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#53 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:19 PM

We must be playing a different game with Druids throwing around Lay on Hands (HotW NS Healing Touch) and every other hybrids being able to sustain themselves and their partners almost as well as if they had a healer. 2s/3s experience as MM, might not work so well agains't mongo damage specs but 10% damage reduction won't faire much better in that case anyway.



The fact that its a talent means that we give up something for it, wich was my point. Spriests, Boomkins or Warlocks don't give up anything for their healing or current reduction, its baseline.

Hawk isn't a "huge damage buff", its a baseline balancing tool if anything else. Its how they tweak Hunter's PvE damage and allow them to trade damage for mobility. Is Warrior's baseline Battle Stance a "huge damage buff" to you?

Btw, Hunters are close to the easiest class to train right now, only reason they're remotely hard to kill is because of their 1 minute Trinket. Try playing a Marks Hunter agains't Rogue or Mage teams and tell me how hard it is for them to train you when you get Deep'd/Kidney'd multiple time every minutes and can pretty much die in any of t hem with no tools to deal with it. Meanwhile you still eat full dot damage (that pretty much every class has by now) without any self healing to counteract them, while our only defensive cd doesn't even remove or prevent the damage from them completly.

Would be amazing if people started looking at the big picture instead of basing their opinion on the current state of BM, that will (we can only hope) be a thing of the past in 5.4.


Disclaimer: I usually consider you to be a really good poster who has good insight.

So I'm wondering why you response to my post talks about something COMPLETELY different than what I'm talking about. Damage DURING cc (stun/silence) is when the dmg reduction becomes a big deal. Hunters now take 10% less dmg than a moonkin - a class who has less mobility than than the hunter (though this didn't use to be the case). Moonkin had become a tanky class because of all the gap closers, despite the fact that we used to have mobility as a plus. Travel form is almost worthless when bursted because you lose the dmg reduction (obviously not with the change) and you basically have typhoon, grasp, and blink/leap. That's compared to hunters having disengage, concussive shot, root on disengage, scatter (you may not want to use it for this because you like to trap with it, but nonetheless it is an escape mechanism), binding/trap root if non BM. All of those things help you kite, on top of the fact that silences don't stop you from surviving the burst. So during a deep blanket, I have skin - that's it - you can't count healing cause I cant use it. A hunter has the dmg reduction of 10% and once deep is over can actually do stuff.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of 'this class has this and I don't' - that isn't the point and those discussions are never useful. The point was that if you die during a deep/hoj/asphyx it doesn't matter how massive your heals are (which are nerfed in 5.4 btw, so they won't be nearly so life saving).

The point about the dmg buff from the talent is that you do get 25% increase in AP - that's pretty massive - while gaining a passive dmg reduction. You can't use the argument 'but it's a talent, so that's why it's different' in the same breath as saying 'its a baseline balancing tool'. Pick one - either it's a mandatory talent and you balance around it, or you have choice in the tier and you are gaining a big dmg buff.

Trying to keep the discussion civilized, which isn't always easy on these forums :D
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#54 Piranhaconda

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:43 PM

+25% AP is baseline for the class. What that talent adds is the damage reduction on top of the regular Aspect of the Hawk.
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#55 Mattadoro

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

cross realm arenas

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#56 xCluck

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

The silencing shot change kind of fucks SV completely, eh?
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#57 GrieverXIII

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

Disclaimer: I usually consider you to be a really good poster who has good insight.

So I'm wondering why you response to my post talks about something COMPLETELY different than what I'm talking about. Damage DURING cc (stun/silence) is when the dmg reduction becomes a big deal. Hunters now take 10% less dmg than a moonkin - a class who has less mobility than than the hunter (though this didn't use to be the case). Moonkin had become a tanky class because of all the gap closers, despite the fact that we used to have mobility as a plus. Travel form is almost worthless when bursted because you lose the dmg reduction (obviously not with the change) and you basically have typhoon, grasp, and blink/leap. That's compared to hunters having disengage, concussive shot, root on disengage, scatter (you may not want to use it for this because you like to trap with it, but nonetheless it is an escape mechanism), binding/trap root if non BM. All of those things help you kite, on top of the fact that silences don't stop you from surviving the burst. So during a deep blanket, I have skin - that's it - you can't count healing cause I cant use it. A hunter has the dmg reduction of 10% and once deep is over can actually do stuff.

I don't want to turn this into a discussion of 'this class has this and I don't' - that isn't the point and those discussions are never useful. The point was that if you die during a deep/hoj/asphyx it doesn't matter how massive your heals are (which are nerfed in 5.4 btw, so they won't be nearly so life saving).

The point about the dmg buff from the talent is that you do get 25% increase in AP - that's pretty massive - while gaining a passive dmg reduction. You can't use the argument 'but it's a talent, so that's why it's different' in the same breath as saying 'its a baseline balancing tool'. Pick one - either it's a mandatory talent and you balance around it, or you have choice in the tier and you are gaining a big dmg buff.

Trying to keep the discussion civilized, which isn't always easy on these forums :D


Its probably a matter of perspective. My post takes survivability as a whole in context, not just when stunned (wich i didn't see mentioned in your earlier posts). As MM i don't have any long duration stuns so i notice self healing a lot more than pure mitigation. Obviously two different types of defenses are better in different contexts, and i agree in the current meta-game static damage reductions are better due to how the game is played at the moment but we can hope next patch things will change. In the grand scheme of things both have their up and downs and some classes having both was kinda silly. I think its a good change overall if they can tone down the mongo-damage going out. Thats all i really tried to say.

The point about the dmg buff from the talent is that you do get 25% increase in AP - that's pretty massive - while gaining a passive dmg reduction. You can't use the argument 'but it's a talent, so that's why it's different' in the same breath as saying 'its a baseline balancing tool'. Pick one - either it's a mandatory talent and you balance around it, or you have choice in the tier and you are gaining a big dmg buff.



You don't get any damage from the talent, you purely get 10% damage reduction, thats it. The ability is the baseline pve balancing tool that every Hunters has, the talent is ONLY the damage reduction so i'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Edited by GrieverZ, 13 June 2013 - 12:02 AM.

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#58 Dagin

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:49 PM

The silencing shot change kind of fucks SV completely, eh?


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#59 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:27 PM

Its probably a matter of perspective. My post takes survivability as a whole in context, not just when stunned (wich i didn't see mentioned in your earlier posts). As MM i don't have any long duration stuns so i notice self healing a lot more than pure mitigation. Obviously two different types of defenses are better in different contexts, and i agree in the current meta-game static damage reductions are better due to how the game is played currently but we can hope next patch things will change. In the grand scheme of things both have their up and downs and some classes having both was kinda silly so we'll see how it plays how, i think its a good change overall if they can tone down the mongo-damage going out. Thats all i really tried to say.

[/size]

This I very much agree with. I'm sick of the swifty one shots during deep/shockwave/asphyx/hoj/etc/etc/etc. Then, you're making an entirely fair point that I can come out of cc and pop some big heals (though with the loss of NS, getting a cast off will be interesting =p). Let's hope that we are really headed towards that type of change.

You don't get any damage from the talent, you purely get 10% damage reduction, thats it. The ability is the baseline pve balancing tool that every Hunters has, the talent is ONLY the damage reduction so i'm not sure what you're trying to say.


Wow I feel like a fucking herb. Because the 25% is written on the talent, I completely neglected the fact that it's on hawk already. Hurr durr, nothing to see here :duckers:
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#60 bandet

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

I saw the 4pc change and I was like "Zomg SV PvP BAACK"

Then I saw the silencing shot change.





I wouldn't say the changes are bad, many of them are good.. I am just more than a little upset that they are just swapping from forcing us BM to forcing us MM.

I mean sure I'd rather be forced MM than BM... but.. you know?

Other concerns:

Binding Shot and Intimidation are now on the same talent tier. Anyone else think this is a bad idea? Having two stun abilities on the same tier means one will simply be better than the other one with such a similar effect. Something needs to change. I'd go with scrap intimidation and put something fun and interesting there, like grappling shot.

Though, I might end up going Wyvern Sting just so I can use the new no escape glyph for epic powershot hard swaps. Would probably be even better in high-end arenas since Wyvern Sting is uncounterabe, unlike trap, and getting a trap on a dps is relatively easy.
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