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#61 fant0m8

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

View PostUdderly, on 14 June 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

I hear you and of course the expectation would be that we would see something replace the talent - they are doing that all over the place in 5.4 as they scrap talents, redesign, move things baseline, etc.  I was solely talking from a overall concept.  I still can't understand why people think locks have good self heals - it's garbage compared to last couple xpacs.  I'm perfectly happy training one all day because they have to spend health (tap for mana, trinket, etc) so the self healing has a balancer don't forget.  Sure we'll give you their self healing, only BW now takes 20% of your health and you have to sac health to regen focus.  =p

BTW, there's now a blue post that explains what I had assumed was the case: the damage reduction removals were for PVE. In PVP the affected classes should be getting compensated.

http://eu.battle.net...54860?page=4#63

Official Blizzard Quote:

We removed these because they were causing a lot of problems in PvE situations. Don't fret though as we intend to balance around this change as we can adjust the damage in PvP to compensate for this in many different ways, such as resilience.

To those wondering why Aspect of the Iron Hawk was only reduced in damage reduction rather than removed, this is because it's a talent and it still needs to have a purpose.

Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#62 Xaderfos

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:02 AM

Regarding KJC.
I agree with everyone saying that it shouldn't be implemented in the first place.But since they did it anw its just bad choice to make such a huge change in the mid of the expansion not because of other classes since they allready said they are gonna balance around it.
This will change warlock gameplay alot and its not good to ask from players to adjust in the mid of the expansion.
They should leave it as is and remove it for the next expansion imo.

#63 Xaderfos

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:19 PM

Just read that they are thinking changing soul link and make it more like cata style.

Can't post links but you can see it on GC's twitter.

I must say it made me happy for now :)

#64 snackbacon

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

I think warlocks are going to be great. Reckful wouldn't have leveled one if they werent going to be fotm.

#65 Maleficent

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:37 AM

From a blue post...

"Got a few updates for you guys. Standard disclaimer applies that this is all still in early testing and subject to change.


Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Looking specifically at Affliction, we're lowering the bonus damage that Malefic Grasp provides and moving that damage over into Haunt and the DoT effects themselves to compensate. We still want Malefic Grasp to be your primary filler for single target DPS, but this will make it a bit less punishing when you can't afford to channel it (especially in PvP). Haunt will once again be interrupted by movement, in favor of the Fel Flame change.

There's been a couple adjustments to the level 90 talents as well. Both Kil'Jaeden's Cunning and Mannoroth's Fury have had their cooldowns and durations lowered to 60 and 10 seconds, respectively. Mannoroth's Fury now only applies to the core AoE damage spells (Seed of Corruption, Hellfire, Immolation Aura, and Rain of Fire), but increases their damage by 100% while active in addition to the range increase. Note that Rain of Fire is being changed to no longer generate enough Burning Embers to be worth using in a single target rotation (so, Destruction shouldn't feel forced into Mannoroth's Fury).

These should hopefully be hitting the PTR in the next build. Once again, please remember that we're very early in the 5.4 development process. Any or all of this may still change before the patch goes live."



#66 Bodhisage

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:17 AM

No specific numbers yet, but it looks like a Dot buff many people have been asking for.

More damage on dots/haunt and less emphasis on channeling MG hopefully will help bring back the "style" to Affliction again.

#67 Itha

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostMaleficent, on 18 June 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:



Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.


I dont really like this change. This way we do not have a way to instantly kill totems or shadow apparitions and the likes anymore. Also afaik fel flame counts towards both schools, giving destruction a complete lockout when interrupted.

#68 osskar

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:53 AM

ye, fel flame change is not a good choice, it was basically the only spell which could easily kill totems very fast, but on the other hand this change will work like searing pain in cata, u can fake cast fire school easily

Edited by osskar, 18 June 2013 - 08:56 AM.


#69 Sonicator

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

View Postosskar, on 18 June 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

change will work like searing pain in cata, u can fake cast fire school easily

Unless they change Fel Flame, it wont. Fel Flame is currently shadow + fire school. So you get locked out from both.

#70 osskar

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:57 PM

ye true, my bad its shadowflame dmg not fire

Edited by osskar, 18 June 2013 - 12:57 PM.


#71 Rawrbertlol

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

Hopefully Blizzard compensates the classes they are taking the mitigation away from.. Perhaps make a debuff in Raid's where all mitigation from talents or passives for non-tank classes is disabled? Still a bit early to be so pessimistic for sure, but I have a feeling with the change to KJC they will have to do something to boost our dps as affliction / destruction, or else many warlock's in pve simply would all play demo (they hardly have to cast).
"This is stupid, might as well give glad titles for picking up flowers in front of OG/Stormwind. But hey , now everyone can have it so that everyone is happy, right?" -Mirox-

#72 Kroyfel

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostMaleficent, on 18 June 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

Fel Flame has gotten a slight rework. It now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can always be cast while moving. Also, it no longer extends the duration of damage over time effects (and, as such, no longer causes them to lose their "snapshotted" stats) and has gotten a small damage buff. The intent here is that you should be able to use this to keep up some damage when you need to move, but you'll want to stick to your standard rotation otherwise.

Not sure I understand the logic here. They say the intent is to make Fel Flame the spell you use on the move, but not while standing still. Wasn't that always the role of Fel Flame in PvE (before Kil'jaeden's Cunning)? You could already cast it while moving, because it was instant. Why would they make it a casted spell that you can cast while moving?

#73 simeonch

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:43 PM

Remove KJC (cause casting while moving for warlocks just isn't right)and then introduce cast while moving Fel Flame. Probably no difference for pve, nerf (maybe) to PvP.

#74 Udderly

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

View PostKroyfel, on 18 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Not sure I understand the logic here. They say the intent is to make Fel Flame the spell you use on the move, but not while standing still. Wasn't that always the role of Fel Flame in PvE (before Kil'jaeden's Cunning)? You could already cast it while moving, because it was instant. Why would they make it a casted spell that you can cast while moving?

Well the big difference is that it hits harder but no longer is a dot refresher.  This way it isn't part of a standard rotation, but hit's decently hard enough to be work casting when moving (that's my understanding anyway, don't hold that as gold).  Not saying it's a good change, but I believe that is their intent.

#75 Tattertotts

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

These are pretty horrible changes, atleast in the way they're written.  Not only are they taking away an instant cast and giving it a cast time, they're making it no longer refresh dots.  Assuming the dot refresh gets transferred to haunt it's just going to be more soul-shard reliant damage.

Also, locking out both schools just to cast while moving doesn't sound like a good time.  Last I checked fel flame was shadowflame so it'd lock out both of the schools, just like others in this thread are saying.

#76 Infernion

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostUdderly, on 12 June 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Great response with useful discussion, thanks for adding so much to the community.  Let's list all of the spells that Affliction has a cast time for:

1. UA (yea right, half the time they are soulburn SS'ing dots so there isn't a cast)
2. Fear
3. Malefic grasp OCCASSIONALLY
4. ?????


Thanks for adding your useless post, really contributing to the community saying random stuff like this.

1. Half the time soulburn SS'ing? Hardly, ever heard of soul shards and dispelling?
2. Yes
3. Occasionally? You can barely do any single target damage without casting this, and
4. HAUNT? You have to haunt aswell to actually get some damage off.

If you think warlocks don't have to cast, then perhaps it's because the warlocks at 2000 don't do it or something, assuming that's the MMR you play at, seeing as you don't even have 2200 achievement. Did they change posting requirements??

View PostKroyfel, on 18 June 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Not sure I understand the logic here. They say the intent is to make Fel Flame the spell you use on the move, but not while standing still. Wasn't that always the role of Fel Flame in PvE (before Kil'jaeden's Cunning)? You could already cast it while moving, because it was instant. Why would they make it a casted spell that you can cast while moving?

The goal for this change is, as far as I understand it, that Fel Flame shouldn't refresh dots. They don't want it to refresh dots, because that would make warlocks lose their "snapshotted" stats as they say, which would mean Fel Flaming on the run would sometimes be a DPS loss, as you refreshed dots that was put up with insane procs / cooldowns. Therefore you'd sometimes be doing nothing, if not Life Tapping, while running, assuming you don't play with KJC.

In order to make up for the nerf, they buffed the damage, and therefore had to add cast time, so it wouldn't just be another Ice Lance. It kinda sucks tho, since it was amazing for killing totems :(

Edited by Infernion, 18 June 2013 - 02:52 PM.


#77 Ahri

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

Def gonna miss if for totem stomping, especially now we don't use wands :confused:

...could link it to shard (re)generation, perhaps? No idea why they kept Nightfall RNG in the game anyway.

#78 Udderly

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:06 PM

View PostInfernion, on 18 June 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

Thanks for adding your useless post, really contributing to the community saying random stuff like this.

1. Half the time soulburn SS'ing? Hardly, ever heard of soul shards and dispelling?
2. Yes
3. Occasionally? You can barely do any single target damage without casting this, and
4. HAUNT? You have to haunt aswell to actually get some damage off.

If you think warlocks don't have to cast, then perhaps it's because the warlocks at 2000 don't do it or something, assuming that's the MMR you play at, seeing as you don't even have 2200 achievement. Did they change posting requirements??


I don't play lock anymore, but I watch a shit ton of streams with people you may have heard of once or twice - Azael, Chanimals, etc.  And I can tell that they spend the majority of their shards on soulburn SS and yes haunt (i forgot one spell, so sue me).  Yes I know you use malefic grasp some for single target, but you play AFFLICTION which does not have a single target priority in pvp - and on top of that, like I said in my post you can channel it THROUGH line of site.  Affliction casts very little, and still has the advantage of moving while casting which is very broken.  Have awesome positioning? JK the lock follows you while he casts fear around the pillar.  That takes skill away from the game.  Not to mention UA being the primary casted item that could be LOSd is a very fast cast time.

Rating bashing always leads to good discussions, thanks for being that - pro.

#79 Infernion

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostUdderly, on 18 June 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I don't play lock anymore, but I watch a shit ton of streams with people you may have heard of once or twice - Azael, Chanimals, etc.  And I can tell that they spend the majority of their shards on soulburn SS and yes haunt (i forgot one spell, so sue me).  Yes I know you use malefic grasp some for single target, but you play AFFLICTION which does not have a single target priority in pvp - and on top of that, like I said in my post you can channel it THROUGH line of site.  Affliction casts very little, and still has the advantage of moving while casting which is very broken.  Have awesome positioning? JK the lock follows you while he casts fear around the pillar.  That takes skill away from the game.  Not to mention UA being the primary casted item that could be LOSd is a very fast cast time.

Rating bashing always leads to good discussions, thanks for being that - pro.

I didn't say we don't spend the majority of our shards on soulburn SS? I said that you have to cast UA a lot even though you can do that, because you simply won't have infinite shards..

If your position is that awesome, the warlock is not always able to chase you around pillars, now is he? While I agree it's stupid as fuck, and I want them to remove KJC, there's no way to exaggerate things and say affliction warlocks don't cast at all, because they do have to cast a lot to do maximum damage.

#80 Protosnake

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:38 PM

They say KJC wasnt supposed to the core design of warlock, but the core of lock gameplay was the tanking caster, and they just removed all our passive mitigation

Look like they are trying to remake the class to scrap in the middle of an xpac, bringing Cata style back without the passive mitigation, and I dont like it, they are just being greedy and gambling at this point, and the felflame change seems to point that they dont really know where they are going right now

I dont think there's a future for the immobile, heavy weapon class in MoP, just try to PvP in mop for 5 sec without KJC, instant-ranged CC fly everywhere around your head and you happen to be the only dumbass standing in the middle, hard-casting your dispellable 30y CC with your main school while healer hardly ever cast or cast while moving

They "can" balance it by making the dot hit for insane damage, and giving us a retarded number of active mitigation, but will they do it ? even if we happen to be good after, do we even WANT that ? I really dont

Edited by Protosnake, 18 June 2013 - 10:44 PM.





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