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Those Damn Ele Shamans and their Nasty Procs

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#61 Baht

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostDrye, on 21 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

echo cant procc from echo because of an internal cooldown. its def. possible to echo from mastery and mastery from echo, resulting in 4 lavabursts
echo has no icd but yea it still cant proc of echo procs cause it just cant :)

#62 Poseyx

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:25 PM

Love all these mages crying
www.Twitch.tv/wushington - Multi Gladiator feral stream

Mrlindv - Youtube channel

#63 Udderly

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 05:18 AM

View PostGekz, on 21 June 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Only thing i can really think of that would nerf it in pvp and keep it the same in pve is to have lavaburst do 75% of its normal damage and the remaining 25% as a dispellable DoT that increases on the target for each lavaburst and proc it's hit by. Just an idea, numbers might too be much, could be adjustable.

I think the dot idea is a really good one - it's how they reduced the burst of things like hunters Lynx Rush and spriests DP.  Make all mastery procs into dots that last 4 seconds or something (balance it, idk the right number) and echo stays as is since it's a talent choice so you're giving up something else to get it.  This way there is zero affect on pve.

#64 Lemmi1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostBaht, on 21 June 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

echo has no icd but yea it still cant proc of echo procs cause it just cant :)

Echo HAS an icd, that's how it avoids proccing from itself, which would also negate the posibility of proccing from multiple sourcess in a very short window.. look it up.

#65 Fleszktezzan

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

hi, first post and i dedicated it to elementals https://www.youtube....h?v=YcokKOmXYXY

Edited by Fleszktezzan, 23 June 2013 - 08:42 PM.


#66 Lemmi1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

View PostFleszktezzan, on 23 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

hi, first post and i dedicated it to elementals https://www.youtube....h?v=YcokKOmXYXY

2 shammans free casting their burst at the same time against a shaman without any potection or cd up, completely open and without cleaning the flameshocks as if there were so many other things to dispell..

Sorry but any other 2 casters can do the same thing if not worst, their burst connected at the same time that's why it seemed so impressive. I'm defending this because to be honest, that is a very biased video, its not as if 1 shaman did all of it through cds or something, or even without cds.. which is what we have being trying to discuss earlier in the thread. It's 2 casters lining their burst without any kind of interruption in a target that is very far from any pillar witouth any kind of protection up, a very expected outcome in any dual caster setup if it happened.

#67 ROKMODE

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:57 PM

Elemental is cheap again?
Looks like it's time to reactivate
Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#68 Fleszktezzan

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:00 PM

I can upload the whole 30 second sequence where one of the elementals knocks us to different sides of the map and my shaman getting root beamed on his way back making him unable to shear any of the casts. My priest put a shield on him and you can hardly ask him to silence an elemental blast/lava burst with no trinket or other cds popped. Considering they just forced my priests disperse no more then 5 seconds earlier they shouldn't be able to do that burst so shortly after.

#69 Lemmi1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:17 PM

View PostFleszktezzan, on 23 June 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

I can upload the whole 30 second sequence where one of the elementals knocks us to different sides of the map and my shaman getting root beamed on his way back making him unable to shear any of the casts. My priest put a shield on him and you can hardly ask him to silence an elemental blast/lava burst with no trinket or other cds popped. Considering they just forced my priests disperse no more then 5 seconds earlier they shouldn't be able to do that burst so shortly after.

uh why not? why other casters can't do it? its 2 shamans hiting on the same unprotected target, its a lava and elemental blast enhanced with unleash elements with fullminations, at least one of them was charged with 5 stacks, and maybe some surge proc, nothing that couldn't have happened since 5.0... i'm positive most or all the casters can do it. i would even say, not trying to sound like an ass.. but they outplayed you, they got your cds, they force you into a really bad position in the open through a good thunderstorm and cced the shaman so it couldn't fight back.. its a pain that they sinced their damage so good that left you unable to react in that last moment, but that is the advantage that this kind of casters have. The problem comes from before. why it ended like that, not why he died so fast in my opinion.

How many times did your partners burned someone in less than 3 seconds with a mindblast/devouring plague, lava burst/somehing in an instant silence to the healer?

#70 Fleszktezzan

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 02:38 PM

View PostLemmi1, on 23 June 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

uh why not? why other casters can't do it? its 2 shamans hiting on the same unprotected target, its a lava and elemental blast enhanced with unleash elements with fullminations, at least one of them was charged with 5 stacks, and maybe some surge proc, nothing that couldn't have happened since 5.0... i'm positive most or all the casters can do it. i would even say, not trying to sound like an ass.. but they outplayed you, they got your cds, they force you into a really bad position in the open through a good thunderstorm and cced the shaman so it couldn't fight back.. its a pain that they sinced their damage so good that left you unable to react in that last moment, but that is the advantage that this kind of casters have. The problem comes from before. why it ended like that, not why he died so fast in my opinion.

How many times did your partners burned someone in less than 3 seconds with a mindblast/devouring plague, lava burst/somehing in an instant silence to the healer?

I wouldn't argue with you if it wasn't for the fact that unleash elements is up 66% of the fight and full stack fulmination even more. And there were only elemental blasts and lava bursts that hit my shaman and both happened in the same global. I seriously don't think there is any other caster out there who can kill without any cc on the healer. Playing a game where you have to stop every cast from a caster is not a good game. If we could stop every cast, how would the game look for them. That's even more frustrating and the best solution is to nerf their procs/dmg.

#71 zenga

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

View PostFleszktezzan, on 24 June 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

I wouldn't argue with you if it wasn't for the fact that unleash elements is up 66% of the fight  
Unleash Flame buffs your next fire spell by 30%. Then it's gone. It's the result of casting Unleash Elements. which has a 15s cooldown. This is a buff on the caster.

When specced into Unleashed Fury (provided you have the Flametongue imbue active), you place a 10s debuff on a target called Unleashed Fury, which will buff your lava burst for 10% and your lightning bolt for 20% against that particular target. That's a debuff on the target (not relevant here since both the enemy elementals were specced into elemental blast, so they only have the 30% buff after using Unleash Elements to their next fire spell, every 15+gcd seconds).

Your focus has the Unleash Flame buff up, uses ancestral swiftness and is hardcasting a lava burst. When the lava burst cast is finished he casts elemental blasts, which obviously became an instant. On a target which had double flame shock up (with your dispel available) and was beamed (which prevents using shamanistic rage/grounding). Traditionally, players in arena do not beam a target just because it looks pretty. So your team had ~1,6s to notice that your focus was going for a 30% buffed lava burst followed by an instant elemental blast.

So 1 shaman used a 15s cd (unleash elements), beam (1min cd) and ancestral swiftness (1,5m cd). With a fire ele up (5min cd). And the other ele can free cast an elemental blast.

I really don't think that it's correct to say that they were not going for a kill, nor that they did not use cooldowns. Silencing the elemental blast (since there was no grounding up) would have had a major impact.

Not saying that double ele is not stupid/problematic, or that ele is fine. Just saying that tmho your video is not proving a lot.

#72 Xhanon

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostFleszktezzan, on 23 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

hi, first post and i dedicated it to elementals https://www.youtube....h?v=YcokKOmXYXY

Nice video, to bad it did not prove anything sorry, try again later!

#73 NiNLeX

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostFleszktezzan, on 23 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

hi, first post and i dedicated it to elementals https://www.youtube....h?v=YcokKOmXYXY

You can substitute those eles with 2 frost mages and you have the same results. The thing is, if you're left out in the open without any protection against any double caster team, you're in big trouble. Basically, all this video proves or teaches is that getting caught out in the open without defensives can mean instant death, even if full hp. Bad positioning led to loss.

#74 ukmadbaptist

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostAbidalzim, on 13 June 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Huh then nerfed Echo of the elements by 90 % in pvp, I couldn't care less about that talent.

This. I find it laughable so many people thinking that echo of elements is the problem, it has a 6% proc chance for elementals, and nearly every sane ele shaman above 2200 use natures swiftness. But whatever, nerf the hell out of this talent, as it's not even relevant to elemental pvp damage..

#75 mirox

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:06 PM

I am no expert in shamans, but I am pretty sure I know how to count, and this video shows 6 lava bursts of which only one was casted, resulting in one-shotting the hunter and showing how much skill your class takes to land a kill.
http://www.twitch.tv/dice156/c/2674512

Have a nice day and many procs off of procs!

#76 Xhanon

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:10 PM

View Postmirox, on 14 August 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I am no expert in shamans, but I am pretty sure I know how to count, and this video shows 6 lava bursts of which only one was casted, resulting in one-shotting the hunter and showing how much skill your class takes to land a kill.
http://www.twitch.tv/dice156/c/2674512

Have a nice day and many procs off of procs!
False! he gets instant procs, so there was more than 1 fired. you need to watch the buffs he is getting!, i am not defending shamans, but the hunter was not 1 shot either

Edited by Xhanon, 14 August 2013 - 06:12 PM.


#77 mirox

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostXhanon, on 14 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

False! he gets instant procs, so there was more than 1 fired. you need to watch the buffs he is getting!, i am not defending shamans, but the hunter was not 1 shot either
Maybe so , as I said , don't really know how the damage works and I don't really care how it works, what I do care about is that there are 6 lava bursts in his combat log and that it can happen to anyone facing ele shaman. So to anyone who is trying to justify this - just save your breath.

#78 zenga

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:48 PM

View Postmirox, on 14 August 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

I am no expert in shamans, but I am pretty sure I know how to count, and this video shows 6 lava bursts of which only one was casted, resulting in one-shotting the hunter and showing how much skill your class takes to land a kill.
http://www.twitch.tv/dice156/c/2674512

Have a nice day and many procs off of procs!

On that same channel he has a video up where he plays double hunter at the start of the expansion and 1 shots a player, while pissing himself on skype. Oh the bias ... And yeah these 1 shots happen of course every game with a 6% chance to echo.

I completely agree that echo has no place in pvp. Now lets pretend echo doesn't exist in this video:

1. shaman root/beams the priest,
2. hunter gets cross rooted as well ... no clue why he should get rooted from an earthbind on this map vs this comp
3. hunter doesn't have a single disc shield the entire time, nor pom
4. shaman has a full stack of lightning shield ready
5. shaman unleash elements (+30% on next fire spell)
6. shaman hard casts elemental blast
7. shaman hard casts lava burst

= every clear sign that the shaman is going for his main burst combo (UE/EB/LVB/Fulmination), yet the hunter keeps standing in his face. Even if echo didn't kill him with stupid luck, EB could crit for 3x the dmg it did now and Earth Shock was available to follow up.

The part about ele shamans that few seem to understand is that overload is not an extra spell, it's part of the innate lava burst damage. If lava burst does 100 dmg then with 50% mastery lava burst will deal an average dmg of 100+((100*0.75)/2) = 137.5. The difference with most other spells is that one time you will eat 100 dmg and the other time 175. If they were to remove overload then every lava burst would hit for 137.5 by default. Echo and lava surge generate extra lava bursts, ele shamans their mastery doesn't.

#79 Lemmi1

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:12 PM

View Postzenga, on 14 August 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

On that same channel he has a video up where he plays double hunter at the start of the expansion and 1 shots a player, while pissing himself on skype. Oh the bias ... And yeah these 1 shots happen of course every game with a 6% chance to echo.

I completely agree that echo has no place in pvp. Now lets pretend echo doesn't exist in this video:

1. shaman root/beams the priest,
2. hunter gets cross rooted as well ... no clue why he should get rooted from an earthbind on this map vs this comp
3. hunter doesn't have a single disc shield the entire time, nor pom
4. shaman has a full stack of lightning shield ready
5. shaman unleash elements (+30% on next fire spell)
6. shaman hard casts elemental blast
7. shaman hard casts lava burst

= every clear sign that the shaman is going for his main burst combo (UE/EB/LVB/Fulmination), yet the hunter keeps standing in his face. Even if echo didn't kill him with stupid luck, EB could crit for 3x the dmg it did now and Earth Shock was available to follow up.

The part about ele shamans that few seem to understand is that overload is not an extra spell, it's part of the innate lava burst damage. If lava burst does 100 dmg then with 50% mastery lava burst will deal an average dmg of 100+((100*0.75)/2) = 137.5. The difference with most other spells is that one time you will eat 100 dmg and the other time 175. If they were to remove overload then every lava burst would hit for 137.5 by default. Echo and lava surge generate extra lava bursts, ele shamans their mastery doesn't.

Just pointing out as your maths aren't clear about it, but overloads don't benefit from unleash elements.





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