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Those Damn Ele Shamans and their Nasty Procs

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#41 ChaosCoozer

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostBamflol, on 13 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

I just hit 90 on my shaman, and seeing things like(@Combatlog, that was all in a global), probably shouldn't exist.

You used ascendance and they didn't stop you hard casting LvB.. rookie move =/

#42 Bamflol

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostChaosCoozer, on 13 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

You used ascendance and they didn't stop you hard casting LvB.. rookie move =/
that was all via 1 global as i said in the post. (1lb cast w/proc up turns into 4 lbs). Disregarding, all I was trying to say was I shouldn't be doing that much damage in 1 global...

#43 Udderly

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:58 PM

View PostBamflol, on 13 June 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

that was all via 1 global as i said in the post. (1lb cast w/proc up turns into 4 lbs). Disregarding, all I was trying to say was I shouldn't be doing that much damage in 1 global...

Yea and the scary part is the 190k that you did isn't even close to how good it can be - I get hits like that on accident without cds, let alone if I have trinket procs/tailor proc/jade spirit up during.  Hitting someone for 350k is not out of the question, which is INSANE.

#44 Abidalzim

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

Huh then nerfed Echo of the elements by 90 % in pvp, I couldn't care less about that talent.
Zaka pa te če naja morš te ne, te pa če pa te ne čuj, kaj te to te je, ne?

#45 Maumaux

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:22 PM

View Postwraithaur, on 12 June 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

All the requests to nurf the procs must definately be coming from people who don't enter the arena every week as Ele and get focused like you are the only person on earth from the moment you start to the moment you log off. The solution is make it so we can kite or escape better or give us some abilities that are channeled...just anything that can start doing damage instantly. Getting locked out or constantly trying to duke casts is almost all your time.
I have given up trying to cast most of the time and spend my time purging, dropping totems and wind shearing. So when you get a proc or 4 you thank the gods and unleash that shit like a boss on peoples faces. If you want to actually kill someone by casting you need to co-ordinate cross CC so you can't be silenced, kicked, stunned while you pop every CD you have. On top of our LvB boost they slowed our cast time so our burst windows are significantly slower and easier to interupt again.

Try living how the other half live before calling for nurfs.
Perfectly written. I dont even try to do 2v2 as Ele anymore becasue i can never cast and get tunnelled like i just killed their dog. Only complaints i bet are from a RBG/BG stand point, and who really cares about that anymore. This is juat a never ending cycle of pointing fingers. If ELE gets nerfed then the finger pointers will move to Mages or Locks.

#46 Maumaux

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostChaosCoozer, on 13 June 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

You used ascendance and they didn't stop you hard casting LvB.. rookie move =/
Exactly. If you use Gladiator Lossa or jsut are good at seeing procs ( not that hard to see when it happens ). CC or silence the shaman. Same thing with rogues, you hear shadow dance you shut down rogue. Its jsut people havent seen ELE shamn in pvp for quite sometime now. Its new to most people and they dont know how to deal with it yet, not Over Powered. Would you let a mage just stand in the open and free cast? I think not jsut have to learn how to deal with ELE is all. Its 10 times easier to shut down a ELE then mage and no one complaining about mages too much right now.

#47 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostMaumaux, on 13 June 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Only complaints i bet are from a RBG/BG stand point
exdee

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#48 Udderly

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostMaumaux, on 13 June 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Perfectly written. I dont even try to do 2v2 as Ele anymore becasue i can never cast and get tunnelled like i just killed their dog. Only complaints i bet are from a RBG/BG stand point, and who really cares about that anymore. This is juat a never ending cycle of pointing fingers. If ELE gets nerfed then the finger pointers will move to Mages or Locks.

Interestingly enough, for the first time I'm actually enjoying 2s as ele.  My brother and I play double shaman 2s (ele/resto) just to cap and have a blast doing it.  Vs double dps?  Let your primal elementalist fire ele eat one of them up, while having tons of healing and instant (ns hex/cap totem/roots) cc to stop them while you cast.  Vs healer/dps?  Run echo and unleash and during a full hex/cap totem + shears for casts you can do some serious dmg to the dps.  In fact, other than a monk (who don't seem to even use mana to heal) I can pretty much oom a healer even if he's not ccd from the sheer amount of pressure I put out.  I also ran with an spriest for a while and found that fun too, with our ability to 'reset' if we need to from all of our offhealing - get a big fear off, run behind a pillar and heal up.  Just my perspective.

#49 Exephia

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:03 PM

ele procs giving huge numbers, let's nerf warriors


/sarcasm

#50 Tomikadzi

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostUdderly, on 11 June 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

If they were to change it so that echo procs cannot proc an additional mastery LB, that would be a start by limiting it to 3 at the same time, rather than four.

If you come and test it you will see that echoe of elements don't proc from initial cast AND overload at same time. It procs either from intial OR from overload

View PostUdderly, on 11 June 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

You could then tune mastery a little higher to compensate (and honestly ele isn't great in PvE at the moment, so upping their damage by giving them more mastery on the other two talents wouldn't be terrible).  

I didn't clearly understand what did you say but:
a) if blizz increases basic amount of mastery (not 16% but e.g. like 20%) then we may meet mastery cap which is lower than 100% due elemental blast
b ) if blizz increases damage coming from overload (not 75% but e.g. like 90%) then we will oneshot ppl more frequently

View PostKorzul, on 11 June 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Any flame shock past the 1st shouldn't increase surge procs. Echo should be redesigned to something a lot less bursty.

Huge nerf for pve. Flame shock ticks 12-14 times per its duration (depends on haste) and having only 1st tick proccing lava surge is like 7-8% chance. To get 20% which we have atm we need to reclip the dot every ~10 seconds instead of ~30 which will reduce amount of earth shock + fulmination by one third.
Also more predictable oneshots coming from eles: Flame shock - lava burst - unleash - lava surge procs - lava burst - instant elemental blast - fulmination - cya

View PostKorzul, on 11 June 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Could also make mastery procs never crit (obv lvb procs would crit) but increase their damage to say 80-85%% up from 75%. Would help with ele blast double crits yoloing people.

INSANE nerf for PvE.

View PostHugeFaggot, on 12 June 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

they should simply put an internal cooldown on the proc so that it cannot exceed a certain amount of procs in X seconds, it would solve the problem of shamans randomly globaling people with 10 lava bursts in 2 seconds, yet still allowing shamans to do some damage with mind numbing and 2 melee riding them like a pony.

There's internal CD on both mastery and echo of elements.

View PostPersephones, on 13 June 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

1 casted, 1 instant proc during the cast = 2 casts in 1 global.

insta proc (if we talk about lava surge) causes gcd as well, so 2 casts in 2 sec (cast) + 1.5 sec (global) with 0 haste


The main issue you guys fail on is that THERE CAN'T BE MORE THAN 3 LAVA BURSTS FROM 1 CAST. All those 5-6 casts come from lava burst and instant lava burst right after.

Problem relies in all of 3 things: mastery, echo and lava surge. But nerfing one of them will cause problems on PvE damage (and don't forget we aren't top spec to be nerfed there):
a) nerfing lava surge will impact a lot on our DPS, like 5%
b ) nerfing echo will make this talent useless (as if we don't have one named conductivity)
c) nerfing mastery will cause the biggest loss on our DPS, 10% or so

Litterally, i see 2 possible solutions:
a) reduce damage of lava burst but increase damage of searing totem by same amount
b ) reduce PvP damage coming from lava burst by like 10%

#51 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostTomikadzi, on 19 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

Litterally, i see 2 possible solutions:
a) reduce damage of lava burst but increase damage of searing totem by same amount
b ) reduce PvP damage coming from lava burst by like 10%

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

reduce damage from mastery procs on players by 10% and reduce damage from echo of the elements procs on players by 30%
complicated fix is complicated
help

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#52 Persephones

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostTomikadzi, on 19 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

insta proc (if we talk about lava surge) causes gcd as well, so 2 casts in 2 sec (cast) + 1.5 sec (global) with 0 haste

Wut? As you're casting a lava burst, you get an instant one from flame shock proc, which means when your cast is done, the gcd is over and you can instantly throw it at someone. That's 2 lava bursts in the duration of 1 cast. We're talking about burst here, right? Which means the following gcd after the instant lava burst doesn't really matter, since it'll generally be lightning bolt or something shit. What matters atm is the rng of casted lava burst into flame shock procc'd one with mastery/echo proccing ontop of that. People can literally go from 100% to ~30% in the timespan of a global. THIS IS WITH NO COOLDOWNS POPPED. At least hunters, warriors, rogues, mages etc need to use CDs to produce the same kind of burst.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#53 Kroyfel

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostTomikadzi, on 19 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostKorzul, on 11 June 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Any flame shock past the 1st shouldn't increase surge procs. Echo should be redesigned to something a lot less bursty.


Huge nerf for pve. Flame shock ticks 12-14 times per its duration (depends on haste) and having only 1st tick proccing lava surge is like 7-8% chance. To get 20% which we have atm we need to reclip the dot every ~10 seconds instead of ~30 which will reduce amount of earth shock + fulmination by one third.
Also more predictable oneshots coming from eles: Flame shock - lava burst - unleash - lava surge procs - lava burst - instant elemental blast - fulmination - cya


Unless I misunderstood something I think he meant that if you have multiple flame shocks on multiple people, only one will be proccing Lava Surge.

#54 Udderly

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostKroyfel, on 19 June 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Unless I misunderstood something I think he meant that if you have multiple flame shocks on multiple people, only one will be proccing Lava Surge.

Still a PVE issue, as multi dotting targets when there is more than one is a good dps gain on some fights.

View PostTomikadzi, on 19 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

If you come and test it you will see that echoe of elements don't proc from initial cast AND overload at same time. It procs either from intial OR from overload



You have it backwards.  The order goes like this

1. Lava burst regular
2. Mastery on regular LB
3. Echo on regular LB
4. Mastery on Echo LB

That is a very viable thing to happen, and does occur.  So it's 2 mastery procs, not 2 echo procs.

#55 matidiaolo

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostUdderly, on 19 June 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Still a PVE issue, as multi dotting targets when there is more than one is a good dps gain on some fights.



You have it backwards.  The order goes like this

1. Lava burst regular
2. Mastery on regular LB
3. Echo on regular LB
4. Mastery on Echo LB

That is a very viable thing to happen, and does occur.  So it's 2 mastery procs, not 2 echo procs.

It cannot happen due to internal CD on Echo and Mastery procs.

#56 Lemmi1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:41 PM

View Postmatidiaolo, on 20 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

It cannot happen due to internal CD on Echo and Mastery procs.

Just to clear some rules, only echo has an icd, and if echo copies the original cast it has a chance to proc mastery, if it copies the mastery it can't proc another mastery. Echo proccing of itself or his mastery can't happen due to the icd.
Echo can't copy fulmination, it can however copy the earth shock and if you happen to get some lighting shield charges between the shock and the copy, you would get another fulmination with the charges that you got inbetween.

#57 Udderly

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

View Postmatidiaolo, on 20 June 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

It cannot happen due to internal CD on Echo and Mastery procs.

This is incorrect.  WhatLemmi1 said above is accurate - I've procced a mastery on the original and a mastery on the echo.

#58 Drye

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

echo cant procc from echo because of an internal cooldown. its def. possible to echo from mastery and mastery from echo, resulting in 4 lavabursts
Posted Image

#59 Toiletbreath

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:08 PM

Well technically echo procs from the real lavaburst, and both have the potential to proc an overload. But you're close enough. Still results in 2 full dmg lavabursts + 2 mastery procs, resulting in really dumb damage from one GCD.

#60 Gekz

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:20 PM

Only thing i can really think of that would nerf it in pvp and keep it the same in pve is to have lavaburst do 75% of its normal damage and the remaining 25% as a dispellable DoT that increases on the target for each lavaburst and proc it's hit by. Just an idea, numbers might too be much, could be adjustable.





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