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Those Damn Ele Shamans and their Nasty Procs

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#21 Jontex

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:13 PM

Echo is not the problem, its not a top tier talent and I do not think anyone plays with it above 2500. Reduce damage on LvB again and nobody will play echo.
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#22 Toiletbreath

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:15 PM

I'd personally love going back to a Wrath playstyle where we had to cast everything.....this would require a complete overhaul of the current metagame though so I guess it's pointless to suggest it.

#23 Lemmi1

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostJontex, on 12 June 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Echo is not the problem, its not a top tier talent and I do not think anyone plays with it above 2500. Reduce damage on LvB again and nobody will play echo.

well, it is picked quite a bit at least in us, and is the best talent for pve because of how it scales, plus the kills in 1 global that most players complain comes from there mostly.
I have being using it for quite some time and to be honest its really good, the trick lies in that it isn't really a 6% chance to proc, but higher, specially when you start lining back to back procs and casts, with only 1 echo proc, you can destroy someone.. as have been said countless times, burst is king in pvp and echo is damn good at it. Well at least that's my opinion after analysing pros and cons of it, a mediocre ele but good insight still i believe.

#24 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostUdderly, on 12 June 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

First of all their overall damage in PvP doesn't need nerfing, so just taking away dmg isn't entirely good....Echo is definitely the problem.
so proc damage is the problem, but nerfing proc damage is bad

makes sense

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#25 Lemmi1

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

so proc damage is the problem, but nerfing proc damage is bad

makes sense

Procs usually means surge or mastery, core abilities of the class. Echo is a complete different beast coming from a talent and a particular proc not core in the functionality of the spec, that's why he made a distinct difference, your trolling was quite unwarranted or very ignorant.

#26 snackbacon

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

http://i.imgur.com/6yvhGHY.jpg

#27 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostLemmi1, on 12 June 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Procs usually means surge or mastery, core abilities of the class. Echo is a complete different beast coming from a talent and a particular proc not core in the functionality of the spec, that's why he made a distinct difference, your trolling was quite unwarranted or very ignorant.
so reduce damage from mastery procs on players by 10% and reduce damage from echo of the elements procs on players by 30%

complicated fix is complicated

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 12 June 2013 - 08:13 PM.

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#28 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:04 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:


so reduce damage from mastery procs on players by 10% and reduce damage from echo of the elements procs on players by 30%

complicated fix is complicated

What part of 'blizzard prefers not splitting pve and pop numbers if possible' is so difficult? I know we can do that. Wasn't the point of this thread.

#29 Lemmi1

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

so reduce damage from mastery procs on players by 10% and reduce damage from echo of the elements procs on players by 30%

complicated fix is complicated

If you do that, you would still see lots of complains about 6 lavas in 1 global and how much unstoppable damage it does, while harming through the nerf in mastery the normal behaviour of the spec, Unless you nerf it to oblivion, And you know how much blizz wants to keep options and not destroy them, especially when it comes to talents. Well just guessing but that's what i believe, assuming the rest of the spec doesn't need nerfing. I feel its kinda like a taste for blood deal, it just isn't good in a pvp environment, its either op or sucks.

#30 Udderly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostLemmi1, on 12 June 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

If you do that, you would still see lots of complains about 6 lavas in 1 global and how much unstoppable damage it does, while harming through the nerf in mastery the normal behaviour of the spec, Unless you nerf it to oblivion, And you know how much blizz wants to keep options and not destroy them, especially when it comes to talents. Well just guessing but that's what i believe, assuming the rest of the spec doesn't need nerfing. I feel its kinda like a taste for blood deal, it just isn't good in a pvp environment, its either op or sucks.

Just to quote real numbers - 4 LB.  One casted, one mastery proc, one echo proc, one mastery from the echo proc.  That's your max from a single global.  The only way this can go beyond is if you cast a lava burst with an instant proc during the cast and instantly hit it.  Otherwise 4 is the most.  Not that 4 is even remotely balanced =p

#31 Lemmi1

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:03 AM

View PostUdderly, on 12 June 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Just to quote real numbers - 4 LB.  One casted, one mastery proc, one echo proc, one mastery from the echo proc.  That's your max from a single global.  The only way this can go beyond is if you cast a lava burst with an instant proc during the cast and instantly hit it.  Otherwise 4 is the most.  Not that 4 is even remotely balanced =p

yet you are saying that 6 is posible, especially during ascendance and when you get that surge proc you are kinda doubling echo chances so... 6 is quite real during cds if they let that red target dummy free, thankfully most of the time it isn't powered up by unleash because we can't control it. Just pointing out how easily, not in chances but potential, it can become absurd, a doble lava when casted is strong, let the posibility of a third and it becomes a rain of complains and tweets to holinka for nerfs with a few photos traveling through the web of the damage in less than a second.

#32 Udderly

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:27 AM

View PostLemmi1, on 13 June 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:



yet you are saying that 6 is posible, especially during ascendance and when you get that surge proc you are kinda doubling echo chances so... 6 is quite real during cds if they let that red target dummy free, thankfully most of the time it isn't powered up by unleash because we can't control it. Just pointing out how easily, not in chances but potential, it can become absurd, a doble lava when casted is strong, let the posibility of a third and it becomes a rain of complains and tweets to holinka for nerfs with a few photos traveling through the web of the damage in less than a second.

I was more saying that we never get a chance to cast it because it procs so often. During ascendance, defensive CDs should be popped anyways, not that it's not still stupid amounts of dmg.

#33 Antitaleon

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:57 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 12 June 2013 - 05:08 PM, said:

Don't worry, Hunter DPS isn't exactly #1 right now either.

In our case though, it's the non-Hunters that keep suggesting changes that have PVE implications, and thus very little chance of actually happening. /facepalm

i think i found a braindance vol2 here
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3x glad 1x r1 logics

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#34 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

View PostUdderly, on 12 June 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

What part of 'blizzard prefers not splitting pve and pop numbers if possible' is so difficult? I know we can do that. Wasn't the point of this thread.
frost bomb does too much damage vs players but has to be balanced in pvp against the other two bombs. solution? 40% less damage vs player targets

if they are capable of nerfing mage damage vs players then i think they are capable of nerfing shaman damage vs players. the %ages can be adjusted and it keeps the damage proccing damage theme of the spec which so many of u seem to love, while fixing the random 90% to dead 1 second gibs that the rest of us hate so much

as for lemmi1, ill let someone who is better then me at english attempt to respond to that

Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#35 Udderly

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 13 June 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

frost bomb does too much damage vs players but has to be balanced in pvp against the other two bombs. solution? 40% less damage vs player targets

if they are capable of nerfing mage damage vs players then i think they are capable of nerfing shaman damage vs players. the %ages can be adjusted and it keeps the damage proccing damage theme of the spec which so many of u seem to love, while fixing the random 90% to dead 1 second gibs that the rest of us hate so much

as for lemmi1, ill let someone who is better then me at english attempt to respond to that

Alright, I'll just try one last time to explain.  Yes I know what they've done for Frost Bomb/Colossus Smash/Find Weakness/etc.  That is not typically how Blizz changes things, nor does it solve the root of the problem (proc globaling isn't good for the game).  So I was HOPING to spark a discussion on better ideas for a change.  Clearly that has failed at this point.  No biggie - enjoy your day :duckers:

#36 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

View PostUdderly, on 13 June 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:



Alright, I'll just try one last time to explain.  Yes I know what they've done for Frost Bomb/Colossus Smash/Find Weakness/etc.  That is not typically how Blizz changes things, nor does it solve the root of the problem (proc globaling isn't good for the game).  So I was HOPING to spark a discussion on better ideas for a change.  Clearly that has failed at this point.  No biggie - enjoy your day :duckers:
You want the way elemental shamans do damage to change, which won't happen until the next expansion and has been how ele shamans have done damage since wotlk so I'd consider rerolling more then anything else. I recognise that we are stuck with elemental shaman burst coming from procs for at least another season after this one, so was suggesting the best possible fix to stop the random one shots when a single shaman cast procs 3-4 other instant casts with no additional action required from the shaman. I'd rather fix the current state of the game then spark a discussion on how shamans will do damage next expansion =)


Hakfu said:

My personal opinion about why PHD/ATC/Beastcleave are not being that succesful on Tournaments is that in many cases it relies on the enemy making an error...In a sense, that makes them the underdog...Hunter's have never really been that OP. People just have the image that hunters should be something to be stomped over

#37 Persephones

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostUdderly, on 12 June 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Just to quote real numbers - 4 LB.  One casted, one mastery proc, one echo proc, one mastery from the echo proc.  That's your max from a single global.  The only way this can go beyond is if you cast a lava burst with an instant proc during the cast and instantly hit it.  Otherwise 4 is the most.  Not that 4 is even remotely balanced =p

1 casted, 1 instant proc during the cast = 2 casts in 1 global.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#38 Udderly

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:08 PM

View PostPersephones, on 13 June 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

1 casted, 1 instant proc during the cast = 2 casts in 1 global.

Yes that's possible, but typically if you can keep two FS up, you won't be able to cast it anyway because it will proc before it comes off cd.  I know there are some occasions where this doesn't happen, but it isn't often.

#39 zenga

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:15 PM

A realistic option to me seems to change the fulmination effect into a 5s dot (affected by haste), while the direct damage from earth shock remains instant. The typical ele setup to sit on a stack of 7 lightning shields, wait for a lava surge proc, with (ns) ele blast off cooldown becomes problematic when you get back to back lava surge procs in that time frame and are able to follow that up with ns ele blast and earth shock, who will all hit at pretty much the same time. And fulmination seems to be often used as a finisher.

Changing that component in a dot would not tone down the proc pressure, but in a good amount of situations it would not result in a kill. And it's a change that would not really affect pve (could turn out to be a slight buff since it would be affected by haste) nor the other shaman specs, nor a change that requires a complete overhaul.

#40 Bamflol

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

I just hit 90 on my shaman, and seeing things like(@Combatlog, that was all in a global), probably shouldn't exist.
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