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#1 Braindance

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:42 PM

A very interesting read on why WoW is declining:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/ (Best edited version - scroll down to see red text)

http://na.leagueofle...284673#34284673 Source

http://i.imgur.com/2tSkfWX.png   (Ugly pic form)

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#2 mdnorth

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:50 PM

Smart guy

#3 FuguFish

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:04 AM

This coming from the guy that claims complex game mechanisms provide a "burden of knowledge" for players and that they are "anti-fun".

#4 fant0m8

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:05 AM

View PostFuguFish, on 10 June 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

This coming from the guy that claims complex game mechanisms provide a "burden of knowledge" for players and that they are "anti-fun".

Yup. LoL developers aren't exactly the greatest people to emulate. They just got lucky.


Oh, and Fuck Pendragon.


edit: Though he's not wrong on this issue. It's not exactly an unpopular opinion, LFR ruined WoW. They took the carrot off the stick.

Edited by fant0m8, 10 June 2013 - 03:14 AM.

Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#5 Smooviex

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:20 AM

my god that interviewer is pissed rofl

#6 Braindance

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:21 AM

View PostSmooviex, on 10 June 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

my god that interviewer is pissed rofl
There is no interviewer - it's LoL random forum posters asking.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#7 Smooviex

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:23 AM

View PostBraindance, on 10 June 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

There is no interviewer - it's LoL random forum posters asking.

ah, well regardless, those are some dissatisfied ex-wow players

not implying they're wrong or anything, I've played since classic also, just found it humorous

Edited by Smooviex, 10 June 2013 - 03:24 AM.


#8 Hackattack3

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:00 AM

Someone mind summing it up for me?  I have ADD and refuse to read all that.

#9 augiddin

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:49 AM

He seems to speak with an honesty I could never imagine coming from GC.

#10 mukuld50

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostHackattack3, on 10 June 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

Someone mind summing it up for me?  I have ADD and refuse to read all that.

yeah same here please

#11 Thaya

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:05 AM

TLDR:
1) He thinks shit went wrong at WotLK when they started making easier modes and encounters, for raid content to become more accessible. Exclusivity was key, to give players a feeling that there's more stuff they didn't see, to make the game feel "endless" and more immersive as a RPG. He explains it with the difference of changes that players want and need [that's the context of the thread this is posted in] - players wanted to see more content, but the feeling of exclusivity was needed (but not acknowledged by the hungry/vocal players, and ultimately the developers). Reading or listening to player feedback lets you see only the wants, it's hard to take decisions as a game developer because almost nobody voices the need - that's also why developer to player communication is necessary, to explain why changes being made are needed. Development is about balancing between these two.
2) This has little to do with balance or difficulty of content, and his reply to people complaining about game difficulty is this: "that's the lens of your personal values - you believe your values of game-playing (skill mastery) is the reason all players should play the game. Many people play the same games for different reasons." The same applies to changes like 40man raids and others. Furthermore, only a minority of players even engage in raiding at all, but even that lost it's exclusivity. He's disagreeing with the design philosophy at a higher level than things like these.
3) He respects Blizzard and GC in particular for doing all the dev->player feedback almost single-handedly, and says WoW is a well-crafted game, he just disagrees with some of the design philosophy and doesn't play it himself any longer since ~WotLK. This isn't a case of #shotsfired.

This is through my understanding, and I happen to agree with all of this. This exact subject was raised and explained many times before, anyway, even back when they introduced normal/heroic modes people already said that "I didn't see everything yet" is a much stronger motivator than "I want heroic ilvl gear". Sunwell is largely considered to be the best instance in WoW, ironically only 1% of players have seen it - a lot more just talked about it. The potential adventure was much more important ("needed") than Blizzard acknowledged, and they introduced LFR on top of it to make things even worse.

It's appalling that a game that's supposedly driven by content is spoonfeeding all of it's content as soon as characters reach a trivial gear level (LFR entry req). Heroic-only bosses are a bandaid, if anything, they just highlight this problem.

Edited by Thaya, 10 June 2013 - 09:07 AM.

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#12 Nokilolz

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:16 AM

View PostThaya, on 10 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

TLDR:
1) He thinks shit went wrong at WotLK when they started making easier modes and encounters, for raid content to become more accessible. Exclusivity was key, to give players a feeling that there's more stuff they didn't see, to make the game feel "endless" and more immersive as a RPG. He explains it with the difference of changes that players want and need [that's the context of the thread this is posted in] - players wanted to see more content, but the feeling of exclusivity was needed (but not acknowledged by the hungry/vocal players, and ultimately the developers). Reading or listening to player feedback lets you see only the wants, it's hard to take decisions as a game developer because almost nobody voices the need - that's also why developer to player communication is necessary, to explain why changes being made are needed. Development is about balancing between these two.
2) This has little to do with balance or difficulty of content, and his reply to people complaining about game difficulty is this: "that's the lens of your personal values - you believe your values of game-playing (skill mastery) is the reason all players should play the game. Many people play the same games for different reasons." The same applies to changes like 40man raids and others. Furthermore, only a minority of players even engage in raiding at all, but even that lost it's exclusivity. He's disagreeing with the design philosophy at a higher level than things like these.
3) He respects Blizzard and GC in particular for doing all the dev->player feedback almost single-handedly, and says WoW is a well-crafted game, he just disagrees with some of the design philosophy and doesn't play it himself any longer since ~WotLK. This isn't a case of #shotsfired.

This is through my understanding, and I happen to agree with all of this. This exact subject was raised and explained many times before, anyway, even back when they introduced normal/heroic modes people already said that "I didn't see everything yet" is a much stronger motivator than "I want heroic ilvl gear". Sunwell is largely considered to be the best instance in WoW, ironically only 1% of players have seen it - a lot more just talked about it. The potential adventure was much more important ("needed") than Blizzard acknowledged, and they introduced LFR on top of it to make things even worse.

It's appalling that a game that's supposedly driven by content is spoonfeeding all of it's content as soon as characters reach a trivial gear level (LFR entry req). Heroic-only bosses are a bandaid, if anything, they just highlight this problem.
LOL the longest TLDR to any TLDR

#13 Dubaaii

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

View Postmukuld50, on 10 June 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

yeah same here please
TLDR - cause of lazy mothe.... who needs to get everything asap (fat epics etc) without any effort, just like the two of u who can't read couple lines of text, game became shit starting with wotlk.
People asking him questions seemed to be very emotional just like....   http://warcraftmovie...w.php?id=232905

Edited by Dubaaii, 10 June 2013 - 11:49 AM.


#14 GrieverZ

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 10 June 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

I have ADD and refuse to read all that.

In short, that attitude caused the decline of WoW. Wich is something i completly agree with.

Edited by GrieverZ, 10 June 2013 - 12:54 PM.


#15 Hackattack3

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostThaya, on 10 June 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

TLDR:
1) He thinks shit went wrong at WotLK when they started making easier modes and encounters, for raid content to become more accessible. Exclusivity was key, to give players a feeling that there's more stuff they didn't see, to make the game feel "endless" and more immersive as a RPG. He explains it with the difference of changes that players want and need [that's the context of the thread this is posted in] - players wanted to see more content, but the feeling of exclusivity was needed (but not acknowledged by the hungry/vocal players, and ultimately the developers). Reading or listening to player feedback lets you see only the wants, it's hard to take decisions as a game developer because almost nobody voices the need - that's also why developer to player communication is necessary, to explain why changes being made are needed. Development is about balancing between these two.
2) This has little to do with balance or difficulty of content, and his reply to people complaining about game difficulty is this: "that's the lens of your personal values - you believe your values of game-playing (skill mastery) is the reason all players should play the game. Many people play the same games for different reasons." The same applies to changes like 40man raids and others. Furthermore, only a minority of players even engage in raiding at all, but even that lost it's exclusivity. He's disagreeing with the design philosophy at a higher level than things like these.
3) He respects Blizzard and GC in particular for doing all the dev->player feedback almost single-handedly, and says WoW is a well-crafted game, he just disagrees with some of the design philosophy and doesn't play it himself any longer since ~WotLK. This isn't a case of #shotsfired.

This is through my understanding, and I happen to agree with all of this. This exact subject was raised and explained many times before, anyway, even back when they introduced normal/heroic modes people already said that "I didn't see everything yet" is a much stronger motivator than "I want heroic ilvl gear". Sunwell is largely considered to be the best instance in WoW, ironically only 1% of players have seen it - a lot more just talked about it. The potential adventure was much more important ("needed") than Blizzard acknowledged, and they introduced LFR on top of it to make things even worse.

It's appalling that a game that's supposedly driven by content is spoonfeeding all of it's content as soon as characters reach a trivial gear level (LFR entry req). Heroic-only bosses are a bandaid, if anything, they just highlight this problem.

Absolutely agree with this 100%, thanks for the summary.

I remember a comment made by blizz/GC that Naxx in vanilla was a waste of an instance since less than 1% of the player base ever experienced it.  That was the beginning of the end.

It also completely removed the power/leverage for guilds.  As you raid, Sunwell was one of the better instances and there was no way to see it without committing to a high end guild.

#16 Hackattack3

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostGrieverZ, on 10 June 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

In short, that attitude caused the decline of WoW. Wich is something i completly agree with.


Eat me.


PS go play BM

#17 fant0m8

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 10 June 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Absolutely agree with this 100%, thanks for the summary.

I remember a comment made by blizz/GC that Naxx in vanilla was a waste of an instance since less than 1% of the player base ever experienced it.  That was the beginning of the end.

It also completely removed the power/leverage for guilds.  As you raid, Sunwell was one of the better instances and there was no way to see it without committing to a high end guild.

Yup. They should have just made better avenues for getting to the level of Vanilla/TBC raiding, not opened up the raids themselves to everyone. (Think in game guild promotion/recruitment boards, training modes where players can practice their role in a raid over and over - with all the variables of other players cut out, etc.)


BTW, iirc that quote originated from the promotion of WotLK, once we knew that the first tier was literally going to be a Naxx clone. That quote is how they tried to rationalize T7 and sell it to the public.


WoW is a carrot on a stick game. That means it doesn't fucking work when you take the carrot off the stick and give it to the people in last place.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#18 Toitles

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

View Postaugiddin, on 10 June 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

He seems to speak with an honesty I could never imagine coming from GC.
Well, he's speaking about a different game made by a company he doesn't work for, so, obviously?

affix said:

The #1 sign that your thread was unnecessary is if the you can copy+paste the thread title in to google, hit 'I'm feeling lucky', and get your answer

#19 Thaya

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

As I said, this was talked about on various blogs and forums since the beginning of WotLK when they introduced modes. They obviously don't want to follow this philosophy as they introduced and promote LFR and other tools and methods to let anybody see all the raid content. It seems to work as well, because even if the subscription numbers are declining, ~9 million active subscriptions is an insane number and no competing MMORPG is even remotely close (let alone subscription-based games).

At the end of the day, we can't know if Blizzards approach is better or worse. It's plausible that people would start quitting due to not being able to see more if they just kept content inaccessible - no matter what anybody says, we don't know what would happen in this scenario and will never know. It's also obvious that backing out of it now is too late, and the masses will never accept going back to the old model. And again, raiding is just one of the reasons some people play the game, don't tunnel vision and look at the big picture.

This is nothing more than exchanging subjective opinions.
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#20 ardnut

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:22 PM

ROFL wow had to decline eventually.  No matter what they do, it will eventually die.  It's already lasted way longer than expected and been much more successful than expected.  They have been milking this cow for ages...eventually the milk will run dry.  Just because people get bored of stuff after so long and move on.

Edited by ardnut, 10 June 2013 - 03:23 PM.

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