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Hunter changes incoming: Share your ideas


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#1 Ansi

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

As Holinkas latest tweet about hunters indicates, hunter are very much under their radar at the moment.

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And on the 9th of june:

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Holinka himself stated he hasn't found any useful feedback (@aj), so let's give him some, though it may even be too late.

Many people complain about hunter damage, but according to PvE spreadsheets, the slight damagebuff we recieved with 5.3, was necessary for hunters to stay competitive in PvE.

But they may have overdone Blink Strikes, as they wan't passive damage boosts to be slightly lower than active ones. So this is possibly something they may nerf a little.

In regards to Stampede, they could double the cooldown and damage, and make it unuseable in arenas - however this would upset a lot of hunters, because it's a 'fun' ability to use, and even necessary, some may argue.

Personally I think the two biggest issues with hunters are Readiness and Beastial Wrath.

They could change Readiness to only work with a select few abilities (like rogue Preparation) - in particular CC-related abilties.

And they could change Beastial Wrath with either an increased cooldown and damage compensation - or to not break CC, but instead make the hunter unstopable for something like six seconds. That would encourage clever use of it in PvP. Thoughts?

Update

Official Blizzard Quote:

-No' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7616922833?page=2#38']-No silencing shot for BM - Yes for the two other specs it should not be touched.
-Stampede removed from arena - All speccs
-Readiness do not reset scatter/trap - All speccs
-Readiness do not reset Bestial Wrath
It's not any of these, however the changes Holinka mentioned for Hunters coming with the restart on Wednesday are relating to Stampede and Blink Strikes.

The changes we have coming for Blink Strikes are intended to assist with the regular complaint we hear about peeling Hunter pets. The change will mean that Hunter pets will only be able to Blink Strike once every 20 seconds and there will be a 10 yard minimum range to avoid the pet using it off cooldown when it's already close to the target. We hope that this will help with Hunter pets utilizing large amounts of glue to stick to their targets.

Our plans for Stampede are actually quite simple to explain; we are removing the ability for the pets summoned through Stampede to use any abilities. The end result of this change should be that the pets a Hunter summons from Stampede will only be able to auto-attack. As you are all aware, these changes will result in a quite the reduction of net damage for Hunters, because of this we have also done a minor 15% buff buff to the damage of Arcane Shot.

Not only are there these changes, but there is still more to come in patch 5.4. We cannot go into details on these for the moment, but keep an eye out for them on the blog ;)

Edited by Ansi, 10 June 2013 - 07:26 PM.

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#2 Evilcow

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

He already say it's like two changes, nothing major until next patch...
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#3 Udderly

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

I'm with many hunters on this (despite not being a hunter) that the nerfs need to touch BM in ways that make it less faceroll and don't fuck Survival and Marks.

1. Kill Command must be in LoS to use
2. Stampede cd raised in pvp so its unusable in arena. They did it for Bloodlust for a reason. Get it gone
3. You can't take BW off of readiness (affects PvE) so stop asking for changes that will affect their dps. But we could limit what CC BW gets you out of, similar to nimble brew for monks. Maybe it's just for roots and fears, or something of the like - don't neuter it, since they claim they want to keep that flavor of the spec (if they want to neuter it, I'm all for it though)
4. Make the pets peelable if we are keeping stampede. Bullheaded shouldn't be usable for your stampeded pets - most classes have one aoe cc peel and then they are screwed. Being able to just Bullhead out of it makes the stampede have insane uptime.
5. And the big one is of course fixing Blink Strike, but according to his tweets they seem to be on top of this already. If it requires no skill to us, it shouldn't up your damage by that much.

Open to conversation about these, but this is my initial reaction.
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#4 fant0m8

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

That's not what "under the radar" means. Maybe you're thinking "under the microscope" or "on the radar"?

The right way to fix (part of) BM is this: add "setup" to their damage. You can't just straight up nerf damage because they aren't OP in PVE and we all know what the real priority of Blizzard is.

BM goes in and does full damage on the first global. This is counter to most specs in the game (including other Hunter specs).

They should shift more of BM's damage to Focus Fire or some other mechanic similar to Master Marksman or Steady Focus.

That way they can't go in and pop stampede first global and be doing insane pressure, but it won't affect PVE.

---

The other change that is needed is Bestial Wrath. BM needs to lose their extra trinkets. That or they lose some of the CC abilities that they took from MM/SV while not giving up anything.

---


Make those changes and see what happens.

edit: Almost forgot, yea need to be in LoS to use Kill Command. That's a needed change.

Edited by fant0m8, 09 June 2013 - 03:49 PM.

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#5 Feliclandelo

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:55 PM

Honestly, I think the major problem is how well they work together with priests. I don't mind their damage. It is the instant and often unavoidable cc they can put you in.

That and having 3 trinkets. I'd be fine with a DR on fear + traps. Also don't let Readiness reset CD on scatter/trap. Then I think we should be good.
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#6 Udderly

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

Honestly, I think the major problem is how well they work together with priests. I don't mind their damage. It is the instant and often unavoidable cc they can put you in.

That and having 3 trinkets. I'd be fine with a DR on fear + traps. Also don't let Readiness reset CD on scatter/trap. Then I think we should be good.


The readiness change affects all three specs, though. As a long time Moonkin/Ele I get so frustrated when they do these kinds of changes - nerf the entire class to hit one spec. Looking at ways to hit BM is key, IMHO.
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#7 Moreudirl

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

-scatter and silencing shot now share a 15 second ICD (if damage is to remain so absurdly high)

- BM no longer breaks you out of crowd controlling effects

-new glyph added glyph of wild beast or something, your BM no longer increases you or your pets damage, but now removes crowd control effects

-stampede deals 15% less damage

-blink strikes now has a 20 second cooldown, but now removes any root or snare from your pet. (the teleport) (maybe reduce the passive dmg boost to 25 or 35% down from 50%)

-trample now has a 30 second cooldown in a pvp zone (still applies AOE 10 yards)

-readiness no longer resets the cooldown of chim shot, glaive toss, power shot, aimed shot, silencing shot, binding shot, scatter shot or BM, ETC. Now only applies to traps, deterrence and disengage. (applies only to PVP zones)

-disengage web looked at somehow, lower duration?

Edited by Moreudirl, 09 June 2013 - 04:16 PM.

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#8 Xtgeorge

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

I feel that the attitude presented towards balancing out other classes has been damage tweaks, considering there is still such a large amount of CC's left in the game for all the other classes which needed adjustments.

Implementing a change which affected hunter traps/scatter/pet CC has already been looked at, I think that a developer needs to understand that alot of other classes have at least a minimal pre-requisite before applying instant, ranged, unstop/LoSable damage.

Possibly the best solution to approach the problem, without affecting the PVE situation too much also, is just to flatten out when and where the damage comes from? An example can be looking at how some other classes often have to stack up some 3/3 of an ability or buff, aggregating the damage over time, even if it eventually comes in the form of trying to global some one in a Stun/blanket.

Playing something like a rogue, To max your damage surely you have to make sure you've spent the globals/cp's/energy on bleeds/slice/adjusting your positioning because you are melee. It's cool to have variety and certain classes who can run in and go nuts, but I think the hunter problem just needs some tweaking, surely having a way to dps through a pain suppression un-supported by feels isn't too bad if it comes after 50 seconds of preparation, rather than instantly?

A word on CC -

The hunter traps can definitely be interrupted in alot of cases, but of course the 8 second web's which are such long duration and hard to remove are pretty tough. Nerfing these can of course affect MM's viability. It definately feels a bit much, remember pom ring on activation and old fireblast?

Putting lore and RP aside - surely a beast master can still be a great spec, without having to rely on the pet to do such a majority of the damage? What about some kind of stacking mechanic which when the pet is munching on a dude, the hunter is gaining the enhancements, not getting a reward for using a mainly automatic mechanic?

Some food for thought at least I hope..
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#9 Contrololold

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:26 PM

That's not what "under the radar" means.


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#10 Hackattack3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:31 PM

-scatter and silencing shot now share a 15 second ICD (if damage is to remain so absurdly high)

- BM no longer breaks you out of crowd controlling effects

-new glyph added glyph of wild beast or something, your BM no longer increases you or your pets damage, but now removes crowd control effects

-stampede deals 15% less damage

-blink strikes now has a 20 second cooldown, but now removes any root or snare from your pet. (the teleport) (maybe reduce the passive dmg boost to 25 or 35% down from 50%)

-trample now has a 30 second cooldown in a pvp zone (still applies AOE 10 yards)

-readiness no longer resets the cooldown of chim shot, glaive toss, power shot, aimed shot, silencing shot, binding shot, scatter shot or BM, ETC. Now only applies to traps, deterrence and disengage. (applies only to PVP zones)

-disengage web looked at somehow, lower duration?


What part of "doesn't want to effect pve" do you not understand? Four of those recommendations would hurt hunter dps in pve.
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#11 Hackattack3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

All they need to do is remove CC break from BW and remove silencing shot, scatter, & trap from readiness.
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#12 Capers

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

All they need to do is remove CC break from BW and remove silencing shot, scatter, & trap from readiness.


Uhh... Idk how to tell you this, but hunter damage is just as retarded as their CC. Both need adjustments. The things you suggested would probably fix their CC, but their damage would still be retarded. It's like when they removed Gag order from 5.1 wars. Yeah they lost some lock down, but they were still freight trains.
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#13 Moreudirl

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:37 PM

What part of "doesn't want to effect pve" do you not understand? Four of those recommendations would hurt hunter dps in pve.


lol, they are suggestions which i feel would be better for the "PVP" community. Not a single one of those will be implemented. (also they stated they are going to start adding pvp vs pve talent stipulations)

the only ones i see that impact pve are stampede, and blink strikes. One is a 5 minute cooldown which really does not matter in the grand scheme of a 6 minute encounter (15% damage lol). Blink strikes was recently implemented in its current form and as such, i suspect it is doing more added dps than intended.

Edited by Moreudirl, 09 June 2013 - 04:41 PM.

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#14 Hackattack3

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:41 PM

Here is where hunters currently stand:

25 mans - http://raidbots.com/.../14/60/default/

They are in the bottom 1/3 in terms of pve dps, unfortunately for us that are interested in pvp balance, they are most likely looking at BUFFING hunter dps even more.
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#15 Bltchasspunk

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:43 PM

A word on CC -

The hunter traps can definitely be interrupted in alot of cases, but of course the 8 second web's which are such long duration and hard to remove are pretty tough. Nerfing these can of course affect MM's viability. It definately feels a bit much, remember pom ring on activation and old fireblast?

Putting lore and RP aside - surely a beast master can still be a great spec, without having to rely on the pet to do such a majority of the damage? What about some kind of stacking mechanic which when the pet is munching on a dude, the hunter is gaining the enhancements, not getting a reward for using a mainly automatic mechanic?

Some food for thought at least I hope..



When the majority of 2400's hunters miss their traps and have clue how this game is really played, and yet win due to mongo deeps. I believe this let alone speaks for itself. Imho I think this game has gone overboard overall with the damage. This isn't about outplaying someone any more in some cases.
And this bullshit about hunters not being available in PvE if they tweak the class a bit (in the BM aspect) I suggest they make the other specs stronger for PvE purposes only. They can tweak the tier set bonuses, for instance as MM you could gain 3-4% attack power while Rapid Fire. Who decided that BM has to be THE PvE spec? Make another spec more viable and tempting for players to play in PvE. Or just in general give BM a better scale for Arcane Shot? Perhaps through maybe granting 5% attack power through some passive buff? Or give the pet buffs for BM the extra stat of 5% instead of just the 5% crit. Whilst they still get this buff, reduce the general damage of a pet, slightly and not gimp it. In my head this looks like a nerf to pets, but a buff to the hunter itself. This way players can actually LoS the damage and not having to play their absolute best at any given time.
- I play elemental on my shaman, and yes I do know this spec has been greatly buffed, but my damage can be LoS'ed while my cd's are up, or even spell locked, cc'd. This goes for mages and warlocks(destruction mainly) and partially boomkins.
(I play hunter as well)

I don't know if any of these suggestions are any considerable suggestions, or even in the ballpark of it. They just sound moderate to me.
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#16 Capers

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

Here is where hunters currently stand:

25 mans - http://raidbots.com/.../14/60/default/

They are in the bottom 1/3 in terms of pve dps, unfortunately for us that are interested in pvp balance, they are most likely looking at BUFFING hunter dps even more.


If they buff hunter damage, pvp will literally be nothing but hunters. http://www.twitch.tv/reckful/c/2399854 There's no excuse for that happening.
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#17 Phillol

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

Here is where hunters currently stand:

25 mans - http://raidbots.com/.../14/60/default/

They are in the bottom 1/3 in terms of pve dps, unfortunately for us that are interested in pvp balance, they are most likely looking at BUFFING hunter dps even more.




Anyways, Readiness should only reset defensive CDs( IE: disengage, deterance) not scatter or silence shot
Stempede damage should be nerfed by 15% or reduce the amounts of pets from 5 to 3.
Kill command by 10-20%
Pet claw by 10-20% since thats what fucks everyone

Edited by Breadstick, 09 June 2013 - 10:37 PM.

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#18 Moreudirl

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:45 PM

Here is where hunters currently stand:

25 mans - http://raidbots.com/.../14/60/default/

They are in the bottom 1/3 in terms of pve dps, unfortunately for us that are interested in pvp balance, they are most likely looking at BUFFING hunter dps even more.


lol everyone knew that already, the changes i mentioned have little to no impact on the dps meter. In fact id be surprised if they had an impact even in pvp. It would just tune down the crazy pressure you can feel at times against a hunter

if you really want to discuss damage, possibly removing the front loaded damage on focus abilities and pets and put more into cobra/steady as well as auto attacks. Someone discussed a 3 stack buff system like other melee possess, maybe thats the answer.

Edited by Moreudirl, 09 June 2013 - 04:47 PM.

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#19 fant0m8

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:50 PM

http://www.twitch.tv/reckful/c/2399854


Do you not see the Ret pally with wings casting on him? Most of the damage from 200k->0 came from the pally, and I am almost certain that nothing was reduced by dispersion due to game latency.
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Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#20 Moreudirl

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:51 PM

nothing against reckful but watching his stream and basing anything off it other than rogue related issues and "possibly" warrior related issues is silly.

if youve watched him play his feral you would assume feral druids are garbage atm lol, he has fun playing new classes and people enjoy watching him do it. It does not mean he has a remote clue what hes doing yet.

Edited by Moreudirl, 09 June 2013 - 04:53 PM.

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