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The sad, sad state of warriors pt.2

please improve warriors

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#221 dionim

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostBraindance, on 25 June 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Can you come to your senses? Warrior was THE mobility class. Just because they gave mobility to monks and cats doesn't mean we shouldn't have better mobility, because we have far less utility and the above two classes do damage similar to ours.

What is hard to understand?

What ? are you saying warriors never suffered from rots/slows ? ofc they have good mobility, thats because they get kited alot.

Warriors was always good for the damage they put when they connect (also they had MS) and how they could take tank more damage than other classes (def stance, reflect, shield block, intervene, passive heals)

If warriors are not doing good, they need to buff the presure they do, and their survival, not give then a root breaker.


Well fuck this, I dont really care what class is op and what class is not, i just have a warrior and i had a feral, those 2 used to be so far away from each other at roles/playstyle. As a warrior i used to not touch a mage at all in a duel, and then when he makes a mistake i could take 60% of his hp in a coulpe seconds, the duel lasted for more than 3 minutes because i could tank/reflect damage, when i was not able to get to him.

thats how I WANT TO PLAY MY WARRIOR, thats why i rather SEE BUFFS IN ANOTHER PLACES, but thats MY OPINION, I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU GUYS SAY, but understanding it will not change the WAY I LIKE THE GAME.

im done.

Edited by dionim, 25 June 2013 - 10:23 PM.


#222 Deonto

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:23 PM

View Postdionim, on 25 June 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

I can tell you for sure, if they separate roots break from safeguard, warriors will never pick up safeguard, so that doenst solve the problem, Also a simple root breaker like Avatar would be too op if it have 30s cd, Bladestorm baseline would be awesome option to that.

Also when you want to balance a really good talent (every class has some talents that they never switch) you cant just get what makes you choose this talent, give it to your class, so you can choose another one, this is totally wrong.

Warriors have plenty of good and diferent options on that tier, want to reflect a spell ? mass reflect, want peels ? Vigilance, want a root breaker/peels ? safeguard, the fact you need a root breaker for most of games doenst make the other talents bad.

Also with narrow scape being dispelable, you will start to use the other choices more.

Edit. for the Mr. Doctor M <I WANT TO BE A FERAL>

WARRIORS SHOULD GET KITTED THEY SHOULD SUFFER FROM SLOWS AND ROOTS, BECAUSE ONCE THEY HIT THEIR TARGET THEY ALSO SHOULD PUT A REALLY GOOD PRESSURE, THEY ALSO NEED TO SURVIVE MORE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TROUBLE AT GETTING TO THE TARGET.

maybe you started playing at 5.1, maybe thats why you dont know the warrior class

You really shouldn't question what warriors would take... if you don't play a warrior yourself. Nor should you say that "x" is a good option over "y"(though,you could play a warrior.. doesn't seem like it with how you are responding, though).

And no, Narrow Escape is not the only reason why we take Safeguard. We take it against ANY team that can/has a root. You simply can't be spam dispelled out every single one.

And also, I never said it made them bad. But it makes them unusable, no?

AND the point of doing this is to increase warrior utility. The buff that warriors have been asking for(utility, that is). There are other ways to buff warriors... this is just an idea. If they buff us in some other way and not this way, great. It is nothing more than an idea. Clearly one you do not like. But you also don't really seem to understand it. So you shouldn't really reply to posts about it.

Edited by Deonto, 25 June 2013 - 10:26 PM.

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#223 Braindance

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:24 PM

View Postdionim, on 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

What ? are you saying warriors never suffered from rots/slows ? ofc they have good mobility, thats because they get kited alot.

Warriors was always good for the damage they put when they connect (also they had MS) and how they could take tank more damage than other classes (def stance, reflect, shield block, intervene, passive heals)

If warriors are not doing good, they need to buff the presure they do, and their survival, not give then a root breaker,
What does that have to do with anything? Of course they suffered, but they suffered LESS because of dispel. What those guys are saying is that Safeguard is mandatory. You cannot take anything else in that tier for pvp - the end. You NEED Safeguard no matter what.

Therefore, since it's MANDATORY, it should be baseline and something else should take it's place.That tier has 0 choices apart from safeguard. Vigilance and mass reflect might sound good on paper but they are not.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#224 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:24 PM

Another reason as to why Bladestorm should be our baseline is becase no warrior will give up our only so called utility skill, hello "shockwave" as long as both are on the same tier talent even if bladestorm becomes 1 min cd.  There is just no way...

#225 Drevi

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:52 PM

View Postdionim, on 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

What ? are you saying warriors never suffered from rots/slows ? ofc they have good mobility, thats because they get kited alot.

Warriors was always good for the damage they put when they connect (also they had MS) and how they could take tank more damage than other classes (def stance, reflect, shield block, intervene, passive heals)

If warriors are not doing good, they need to buff the presure they do, and their survival, not give then a root breaker.


Well fuck this, I dont really care what class is op and what class is not, i just have a warrior and i had a feral, those 2 used to be so far away from each other at roles/playstyle. As a warrior i used to not touch a mage at all in a duel, and then when he makes a mistake i could take 60% of his hp in a coulpe seconds, the duel lasted for more than 3 minutes because i could tank/reflect damage, when i was not able to get to him.

thats how I WANT TO PLAY MY WARRIOR, thats why i rather SEE BUFFS IN ANOTHER PLACES, but thats MY OPINION, I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU GUYS SAY, but understanding it will not change the WAY I LIKE THE GAME.

im done.

I would love to play my class S8 style again. I think 90% of warriors (that played back then) agree that it was the most balanced and fun state of the spec... And removing some retarded pve items, I would say of the whole pvp game.
But you don't seem to realize that bringing back that requires XPAC LEVEL CHANGES. And not just on warriors, cause S8 warriors wouldn't have a place in the current state of the game.

This thread is for suggestions for next season/patch, aka bandaids for the terrible state of the class. Try to think that before suggesting something or bashing at a suggestion.

View Postirubuwrongtime, on 25 June 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

Another reason as to why Bladestorm should be our baseline is becase no warrior will give up our only so called utility skill, hello "shockwave" as long as both are on the same tier talent even if bladestorm becomes 1 min cd.  There is just no way...


I think what should be baseline is shockwave.

That tier is supposed to be the "aoe damage + little utility". BS and DR fit in that category one has a cc break and the other a (shitty) interrupt. However shockwave has too much utility, making extremely (or impossible) to compete for the other talents.

Making SW baseline, reducing or removing the damage done and giving us another AOE talent would be awesome. We could pick BS/DR/new talent situationally and not worry of loosing our only decent peel.

#226 Evilcow

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 11:59 PM

They should switch Dragon Roar and Storm Bolt on the talent tree, after all Dragon Roar is more of a Damage Talent and Storm Bolt more of a Utility/Control talent.

They should add gag order back to Heroic Throw and make HT have a minimum range of 8y.

They should also make Bladestorm baseline and change safeguard to reflect the next melee special attack/spell on our partner and remove the root breaking component.

#227 kagan

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:04 AM

View Postdionim, on 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

What ? are you saying warriors never suffered from rots/slows ? ofc they have good mobility, thats because they get kited alot.

Warriors was always good for the damage they put when they connect (also they had MS) and how they could take tank more damage than other classes (def stance, reflect, shield block, intervene, passive heals)

If warriors are not doing good, they need to buff the presure they do, and their survival, not give then a root breaker.


Well fuck this, I dont really care what class is op and what class is not, i just have a warrior and i had a feral, those 2 used to be so far away from each other at roles/playstyle. As a warrior i used to not touch a mage at all in a duel, and then when he makes a mistake i could take 60% of his hp in a coulpe seconds, the duel lasted for more than 3 minutes because i could tank/reflect damage, when i was not able to get to him.

thats how I WANT TO PLAY MY WARRIOR, thats why i rather SEE BUFFS IN ANOTHER PLACES, but thats MY OPINION, I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU GUYS SAY, but understanding it will not change the WAY I LIKE THE GAME.

im done.

i tried having an objective opinion as well. basically like teasing a lions den, bunch of angry inactive warriors.
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#228 Evilcow

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:27 AM

View Postdionim, on 25 June 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

What ? are you saying warriors never suffered from rots/slows ? ofc they have good mobility, thats because they get kited alot.

Warriors was always good for the damage they put when they connect (also they had MS) and how they could take tank more damage than other classes (def stance, reflect, shield block, intervene, passive heals)

If warriors are not doing good, they need to buff the presure they do, and their survival, not give then a root breaker.


Well fuck this, I dont really care what class is op and what class is not, i just have a warrior and i had a feral, those 2 used to be so far away from each other at roles/playstyle. As a warrior i used to not touch a mage at all in a duel, and then when he makes a mistake i could take 60% of his hp in a coulpe seconds, the duel lasted for more than 3 minutes because i could tank/reflect damage, when i was not able to get to him.

thats how I WANT TO PLAY MY WARRIOR, thats why i rather SEE BUFFS IN ANOTHER PLACES, but thats MY OPINION, I UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING YOU GUYS SAY, but understanding it will not change the WAY I LIKE THE GAME.

im done.

Then warriors would still be nothing but mongo damage dealing training dummies.

I agree this is inline with what we used to be, but we also had better mobility that we lost with Intercept, Bladestorm and Dispel changes; but it's not inline with the current game where other classes can easily out dps and out burst Warriors and teams have no reason to chose a warrior over other class.

Buffing our mobility, survivability, damage and pressure would make us better, but they would also need to nerf other classes's dmg & burst, and in the end of the day we would still be boring to play without some utility.

#229 kazuhmeer

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:48 AM

all these changes people are clamoring for - mobility, damage, utility, you are asking for to much.

more mobility = more damage.

we're not a utility class, accept it.  we wont ever be given any.  thats not what pure dps classes about anyway.

warriors need a small damage bump, anything more and it will be excessive.  warriors are hard to balance since they are either out of control or really bad.  scalpal changes not the chainsaw.

#230 Saberstrike

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

How about giving warrior healing a long hard look? First off I think second wind needs a change, I bet both warriors and everyone else agrees to that. I had an idea for it - rename it to Blood Craze and make it heal the warrior for 75%-200% of damage done by deep wounds, increasing as the warrior's health goes down. It will also increase to 150-250% during stun / root, returning us to the iconic design behind second wind being a tool to counter cc.

In addition there can be a passive that heals 1-3% hp every 2 seconds during enrage, and perhaps one like ye'olde blood craze with 3-6% heal over 6 seconds when someone crits you.

In my mind those changes might return warrior to being the most tanky melee without actually overbuffing them, allowing them to be CCd when necessary but actually providing a defense against being dropped in a deep. It will also allow the warrior to remain in the heat of battle without flopping over in a second as, let's be honest here, that's what warrior -should- feel like doing. It will also discourage zerging.

My opinion is warrior's niche should be hard damage + ability to stay alive and outlast opponents, with downsides being lack of group-worthy utility (check) and being easily CCd (check). We got the downsides right, now we just need to get back to our feet with actual ability to counter being trained. I like the 2-hander shield wall change in 5.4 but honestly, if they don't change anything about rets / elementals we'll probably still drop in an opener through heals / shield wall / second wind. Coz skill.

#231 arshigucci

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

compare dk/ret and monk dps with warriors ... They do way more dmg! so i agree with you buff warriors for god sake

#232 Pinka

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:21 AM

Arms dmg in pve is also lackduster. I think they should buff ms. Ms should be our strongest strike not slam. So either buff that or mastery dmg.
I currently feel as if i am auto attacking ppl when i cannot slam or ms. Cause our mastery is basicly nerfed auto attacks and overpower is auto attacks with a 60% crit chance.

And i can rage pretty hard when this dick elem, destro lock or hunter is outdpssing me in melee range. I am fine if our utility is lower but atleast make it up trough dmg or survival.
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#233 Tromka

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:37 AM

View Postkazuhmeer, on 26 June 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

thats not what pure dps classes about anyway.

For blizzard, in PVE, we are not a pure dps class, we are hybrids tank/DPS.

So, we have to be tanky and we should basically want to take damage instead of our teammates. We should transform incoming damage on us to something usefull for our team and reduce or redirect some damage out of our partners.

In the past xpacks, we transformed incoming damage into more damage output, because of the rage gain on hit. Remember the old battleground where a warrior healed was a killing machine on the bridge of Alterac. Now, the more incoming damage on us the less we can dps, and when we are in battle, we are more squishy than cloth.

Our armor is clearly useless, in the past xpacks, plate wearers have more life than clothes. So with the same burst/dps, we could be in a good spot even with less uptime than a ranged. Now, to exist as an hybrid, we have to be tankier even in battle stance and take advantage of being focused in some way. So we can charge in the battle again instead of flee behind the first pillar we see.

#234 Udderly

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 25 June 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

I am actually done trying to explain to you what the fuck we are talking about right now, because it doesn't matter which way we put it you just doesnt seem to understand at all...

Atleast come with some suggestion instead of just saying "dont give warrior more rooots, safeguard is enough"

Like dude.. Seriously?

Relax tiger.  He's trying to have an actual discussion, rather than blindly agreeing with people - that's the point of these forums. AJ isn't supposed to be (but tends to be anyway) a place to just whine about your broken class, but rather a place to DISCUSS changes.  You're clearly one of those people who insists that he agrees with you or you don't hear anything someone else is saying.  Have a beer, chill out, :duckers:

#235 Smashy7

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:25 PM

View PostPinka, on 26 June 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Arms dmg in pve is also lackduster. I think they should buff ms. Ms should be our strongest strike not slam. So either buff that or mastery dmg.
I currently feel as if i am auto attacking ppl when i cannot slam or ms. Cause our mastery is basicly nerfed auto attacks and overpower is auto attacks with a 60% crit chance.

And i can rage pretty hard when this dick elem, destro lock or hunter is outdpssing me in melee range. I am fine if our utility is lower but atleast make it up trough dmg or survival.

agree buff mortal strike plox ;]

#236 Doctor M

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostUdderly, on 26 June 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Relax tiger.  He's trying to have an actual discussion, rather than blindly agreeing with people - that's the point of these forums. AJ isn't supposed to be (but tends to be anyway) a place to just whine about your broken class, but rather a place to DISCUSS changes.  You're clearly one of those people who insists that he agrees with you or you don't hear anything someone else is saying.  Have a beer, chill out, :duckers:

So, do you also think that Safeguard should primarily be used to brake roots? Might aswell reduce the damage reduction and lower the cooldown in that case. Since you very rarely get to use it for that purpose.

Oh and also, you're absolutely correct about me, I'm only complaining and whining about how broken my poor class is. I never give suggestions on to how to make it fun and viable to play a Warrior once again. You probably have some undiscovered talent where you can determine what kind of a person someone is over the internet.

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View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#237 Zectz

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 26 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

So, do you also think that Safeguard should primarily be used to brake roots? Might aswell reduce the damage reduction and lower the cooldown in that case. Since you very rarely get to use it for that purpose.

He was talking about the manner in which you respond. He himself didn't bring up specific game changes, but you still felt the need to follow an argument with him about game changes he didn't even talk about? He has a valid point about people who just continue to argue if people don't agree and just get agitated.

View PostDoctor M, on 26 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Oh and also, you're absolutely correct about me, I'm only complaining and whining about how broken my poor class is. I never give suggestions on to how to make it fun and viable to play a Warrior once again. You probably have some undiscovered talent where you can determine what kind of a person someone is over the internet.

Again, that is not what he said about you. Stop being a drama queen.

#238 Udderly

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 26 June 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

So, do you also think that Safeguard should primarily be used to brake roots? Might aswell reduce the damage reduction and lower the cooldown in that case. Since you very rarely get to use it for that purpose.

Oh and also, you're absolutely correct about me, I'm only complaining and whining about how broken my poor class is. I never give suggestions on to how to make it fun and viable to play a Warrior once again. You probably have some undiscovered talent where you can determine what kind of a person someone is over the internet.



The guy above me pretty much hit it on the head, but the point was that you should learn to accept that sometimes people won't agree with you, that doesn't mean they aren't listening/their opinion is wrong.  Dionim has his opinion, you have yours - get over it - it's ok to disagree.

/end rant

#239 Pritchard

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostSaberstrike, on 26 June 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

How about giving warrior healing a long hard look? First off I think second wind needs a change, I bet both warriors and everyone else agrees to that. I had an idea for it - rename it to Blood Craze and make it heal the warrior for 75%-200% of damage done by deep wounds, increasing as the warrior's health goes down. It will also increase to 150-250% during stun / root, returning us to the iconic design behind second wind being a tool to counter cc.

In addition there can be a passive that heals 1-3% hp every 2 seconds during enrage, and perhaps one like ye'olde blood craze with 3-6% heal over 6 seconds when someone crits you.

In my mind those changes might return warrior to being the most tanky melee without actually overbuffing them, allowing them to be CCd when necessary but actually providing a defense against being dropped in a deep. It will also allow the warrior to remain in the heat of battle without flopping over in a second as, let's be honest here, that's what warrior -should- feel like doing. It will also discourage zerging.

My opinion is warrior's niche should be hard damage + ability to stay alive and outlast opponents, with downsides being lack of group-worthy utility (check) and being easily CCd (check). We got the downsides right, now we just need to get back to our feet with actual ability to counter being trained. I like the 2-hander shield wall change in 5.4 but honestly, if they don't change anything about rets / elementals we'll probably still drop in an opener through heals / shield wall / second wind. Coz skill.

the game needs way LESS self heals, not way more.  If everyone keeps getting crazy self heals there is going to be no need for healing specs soon with hybrids in the game.

#240 kazuhmeer

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 07:45 PM

i really dont understand this huge urge to overhaul warriors.  they really aren't that bad now, the few classes that are popular just completely shit on warriors.

ele - dont need to explain this.  knock is almost the same cd as juggernaut if they glyph it.

ret - bops / offhealing / sacs

hunters - ... hunter.

feral - offhealing + lots of control for the warrior

that covers the big ones anyway.  all warriors need is some reason to actually use slam, its so bad i dunno why anyone would use it unless you are swimming in rage.




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