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The sad, sad state of warriors pt.2

please improve warriors

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#21 Nerdstomperr

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:16 PM

I all so think a lot of this has to do with people not having to manage mana etc any more if you notice a lot of caster dps never gos oom or a hunter getting focues back never seems to be a problem any more I think they should bring those playstyles back into the game.

to where class wont seem brain dead I realy thing that is one of the major problems
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#22 Capers

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:26 PM

untrue, but what would make us less boring.


Some forms of utility as Braindance mentioned. It's fun to be able to save your partners/pull off clutch moves to stop enemies. It's not fun to just peel with more damage.
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#23 bode45

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

The biggest problem is our lack of utility. The fact that classes who do damage similar to ours on top of that have offheals/cc on comparatively shorter cooldowns is what makes us inferior. Only good thing we have going for us is our mobility which i think is second only to ferals.

While i did like the niches of wotlk, we can assume that blizzard isnt going to do anything to bring that back soon given that most classes have so many tools which are similar to each other.

Braindance had lots of good suggestions how to improve our current state, but id like to point out that i like the shorter cooldown on spell reflect/baseline mass spell reflect/shockwave the best just because they are reactive and you need to have some awareness to utilize them which i think raises the skill cap and thats exactly what this game needs atm. Something else that might improve our utility is lowering the cooldown on intimidating shout, the fact that its completely counterable by shamans and somewhat by undead(would also like all racials not allowed in arena but thats another topic) is a bit over the top, unless you play with another fear class.

Our slow mechanic is pretty outdated aswell, spending 20% of globals for a slow is pretty annoying, especially considering that all other melees(except rets who make up for it with faster passive movement speed/dispels) or even some casters have it integrated in their dps rotation. Maybe change gloves bonus to add slow to overpower, or change glyph of hindering strikes so it applies slow on some other ability in our dps rotation.

Many of these suggestions might set us right or make us overpowered, best method for changing pvp balance would be implementing these smaller patches on live more often. Waiting several months for changes is what makes this game unenjoyable for so many people/classes at any given patch, ending up in new expansion that completely revamps the pvp system again and new imbalances are introduced and so we begin again.
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#24 Tromka

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

Hellow, sorry for my english, but i want to reply this thread

Some more ideas :

> Make shattering throw instant, or remove rage cost, or move the effect to StormBolt.

> Add more love to Avatar, or rename it Death wish, because u know, it's nothing more than our old spell.


The big part :

> Rework stances/rage management.

For me, it's the very very annoying point. In the past Xpacks, we didnt need very strongs defensive cds because of the rage generation system. We take damage ? ok, then, i feel like Bullet Tooth Tony : i have a full rage bar to spend. I think rage have to be a "payback" ressource like this (why call it rage then ? name it power bar for now ^^), and it's the niche we are looking for : counterpressure. Then, it's acceptable to have less utility than others if we are an awful target in arena. So :

> Make defensive Stance generate rage when we are hit and reduce our damage by x% or force us to wear a shield in D (for fury and arms)
> Add 10% dmg reduction on combat stance
> Make berzerker stance reduce the cc duration on us and generate more rage when hit
> Bring back RETALIATION !!!!!!!
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#25 Nihe

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:15 PM

I would like to see:
1. Storm Bolt as a baseline or replacing Heroic Throw.
2. Shockwave reworked: Striking 1 target = 40sec cooldown, 2 targets = 30sec cooldown, 3+ targets 20sec cooldown.
3. Shield Wall usable in a stun.
4. Remove rage cost from Shattering Throw.

+ Hamstring is the most horrible thing ever, would love to see a change on that too.
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#26 heavi

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:59 PM

I find another problem is keeping our target in melee range via hamstring

It seems that hamstring is ONE of the weakest slow there is in the game (BIAS? Maybe). It is 50% slow, cost 10rage (like we have rage to spare), it can be parried or dodged, and it has a global cd. In comparison to other classes....

other classes have it on a passive / main skill <<<OR>>> Can be used from range
-Rogue poison (shiv AND can be range from throw)
-Feral's "Infected Wounds" (passive main skills)
-Mage Frostbolt/Frostfire bolt (passive main skills / Range)
-Shaman's Frost shock / Earthbind totem (passive and range)
-Spriest mind flay (passive and range)
-Deathknights Chains of Ice (range)
-Hunter's concussive shot (range)
-Warlocks Conflag (main skill and range)
-Ret Paladin's Seal of Justice (passive main skill and range)
Not sure about monk's cause nobody cares about monks ^_^

I think the point I'm getting at is: even though we've got one of the best gap closures in the game (charges and a leap), it does not mean anything if 2 seconds later they are out of our range once again. It is very common now in the game to get peeled because of all the range UTILITY that every class has. Warriors once kited can be ignored because they provide no threat at range distance.
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#27 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:03 AM

Warrior is almost balanced, I'd agree that you could get a silence and bladestorm baseline but anything else would make it too strong. They should focus on tuning down other classes first.


I pretty much agree with above. Maybe improved hamstring on top of that for lil better peel but warrior is fine atm.
Fix the op class like hunter/ele and this patch seems to be the most balanced patch in a long time.
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#28 usingg

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:19 AM

Buff fear plz
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#29 Pritchard

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:32 AM

my biggest problem with warriors is that monk has everything a warrior used to have, has a better version of something they do have, on shorter cooldowns, and much more reliable, on top of crazy damage.
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#30 Frostwor

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:46 AM

-Rogue poison (shiv AND can be range from throw)



Rogue slow poison is on 50% RNG to apply, shiv has a 10 second cd 20energy cost can be blocked, parried etc. On top of this many classes have skills that clean poison slow completely or prevent them from applying for X seconds. Shuriken doesn't apply non lethal poisons anymore = no range slow. Honestly rogue is the worse class when it comes to slowing targets down, also crippling was nerfed this expansion from 70% to 50% movement speed slow. On top of rogue crap mobility not getting a slow proc when you open somebody is so fun.

Edit* Hamstring is also 100% physical slow which is much more better since a lot less things remove it.
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#31 Zeon

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:21 AM

Most of you (junkies) agreed when blizzard nerfed warrior's utility to zero at start of MOP.
Maybe just revert 80% of utility nerfs? 1 min CD fear, 30 sec CD shockwave, no dimishing with warbringer, silence from heroic throw...
Yes, I understand stunlocks and blanket silences are stupid, but every single class has lots of it. The only class that doesnt is DK but he puts much more pressure now than a warrior.
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#32 Pritchard

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:27 AM

Warriors were doing a lot more damage from TFB back then, although some of them should stay gone. Warbringer and shockwave was OP as fuck, and I kinda feel the same with 1 min fear. The idea of shockwave lowering cd per target you hit is amazing, as its stupid if you just get a 20s cd aoe stun that does damage. I would be happy with having imp hamstring back with a snare being caked in, as well as some way to help a little more against wizards. Also the stance cooldown to be made like DK stances so you can swap a lot more actively.
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#33 aiba

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

Rogue slow poison is on 50% RNG to apply, shiv has a 10 second cd 20energy cost can be blocked, parried etc. On top of this many classes have skills that clean poison slow completely or prevent them from applying for X seconds. Shuriken doesn't apply non lethal poisons anymore = no range slow. Honestly rogue is the worse class when it comes to slowing targets down, also crippling was nerfed this expansion from 70% to 50% movement speed slow. On top of rogue crap mobility not getting a slow proc when you open somebody is so fun.

Edit* Hamstring is also 100% physical slow which is much more better since a lot less things remove it.

lol
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#34 Najiki

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:04 AM

this makes me a sad sad paaanda :'(
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FULL FEAR!...oh it missed

#35 dRUSERN

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:35 AM

Agree with much of this. What we need is some utility, and with it, some reduction to burst.

Slowing enemies needs to come first. Either hamstring does decent-ish damage, or something else slows.

What I would personally LOVE and what I think fits the warrior class (esp. arms) as a whole is 1.0 sec GCD's all around. You have charge and then short intervals when you stay on a target, you spend many globals on slows, stuns etc, and you have too many DPS buttons (colossus smash might be the cultprit).

OR (if not 1.0 sec GCD's) seperate GCD's FOR:

Hamstring
shattering throw (remove rage cost already dayum)
shockwave
Shouts (thinking mostly of battle and commanding)
thunder clap
Charge(?)

edit: and seperate GCD for c.smash, maybe only when it procs or something.
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#36 Udderly

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:52 PM

Continuation from http://www.arenajunk...s/#entry3873772

Fellow warriors:

Intro

Although most of our defensive problems have been addressed (and I think that the above thread had something to do with it), we still remain a dry, uninvolved class with no real depth. Due to countless complains coming mostly from the all-mighty RMP classes we have been stripped of everything class defining characteristics we had, ranging from our (once) unparalleled mobility , to our (once) supreme consistent damage. We have been reduced to a slow, damage dealing machine with no other purpose and no real niche. We currently are nothing more than PvE mobs with minimal player input.

Causes

The reasons for the above are:

  • Most of our class defining tools have been given to other classes (and some have even been removed from us like improved hamstring) - mortal strike, high consistent damage, strong melee damage reductions debuffs (clap+demo shout), good mobility, undispellable peels (improved hamstring where are you, disarm)
  • WotLK, as much as I hated it as an expansion, did a good job in greatly enhancing the utility arsenal of each class when compared to BC. The two expansions that followed, increased the utility of every class BUT warriors. Instead, since the start of Cata, we kept losing more and more class defining skills (eg intercept). Currently in MoP, we are 3 expansions behind utility wise. Even during BC we had mace stun and improved hamstring, which, even though RNG, were extremely powerful and effective
  • From s6 and beyond the game became more centered around casters. As a follow up, melee started getting tools to deal with them (ams, silences, magic damage reducing abilities in short cd etc, ranged damage in the form of dots throws.coils etc). On the contrary, our one main defense against casters, spell reflect, was nerfed. Just some food for thought, no one cared about spell reflect fine during the entirety of WotLK where casters actually casted, but it became a thorn in the side of the disgusting vocal minority that enjoys rbgs. I find it outrageous that the one ability that required complete awareness of what is going on in the arena to use effectively was nerfed.
  • Most melee gained the same, if not superior, damage output. Dks, ferals, rets you name it. It is hilarious that classes with quadruple our tools can have the same pure damage output as the traditional damage dealing class. An added bonus; manyhybrid/dk attacks are not affected by armor (feral bleeds, dk diseases/necro, etc)
We have no niche; we can't fill any role better than anything else; for every warrior comp, there is a superior one that involves a different melee.

Possible solutions

We need something class-defining that other can’t do as well:

1. Unrelenting assault back in the game http://www.wowwiki.c...lenting_Assault . Yes you heard me, but this time the debuff is applied only to damage and not healing. Could be implemented in the form of a separate binding that expends 4 overpower charges to reduce spell damage by 50% for 6/8 seconds

2. Reflect to 20 seconds for arms/ fury only. 15 with the glyph

3. Mass spell reflect baseline

4. Damage done in defensive stance reduced by 10%, but we gain 6 rage per white attack

5. Glyph of heroic leap baseline since it’s mandatory

6. I would like to see some limited ranged utility - Heroic throw silences for 3 seconds (would be the weakest silence in the game but still some utility), or it applies a slow for 60% for a few seconds (like a weaker version of chains of ice)

7. Improved hamstring back

8. Revenge available to arms once again

9. After rallying cry falls, the hp % is retained.

10. Shockwave cooldown is reduced by 7 seconds for every target it hits, to a minimum of 20 seconds

11. Bladestorm baseline – it is a shame that one of our iconic abilities has to be at the same tier where shockwave is the beyond obvious choice. Warrior AoE even in pve is among the weakest around already anyway, so I think it makes sense

12. Hamstring either removed from the global cooldown, or “baked” into some other spell (slam is a good example)

13. Lower cd on reck/avatar/banner – lower the effect/duration to compensate. Avatar could also grant slow immunity for the duration (not snare immunity), since it’s relatively easy to peel a warrior already compared to other classes (no immunities like ams, cloak etc)

14. Reflect no longer requires a shield – this has absolutely nothing to do with skill, it’s purely a QoL improvement for ppl with an ms higher than 100

Most of the above changes are very easy to implement code-wise, merely by tweaking numbers.
If we get half of windwalker monks’ utility, we are saved. They are a paradigm for a well-designed class, with excellent utility and very intricate spells (zen meditation comes to mind)

Please feel free to add your ideas/comments, but do so in a concise format so that Ghostcrawler/Holinka/devs can easily browse through, without spending too much time.


Most of these are good ideas (as someone who hates playing against warriors, so I have nothing to gain here), but they couldn't all go in (obviously) because it would be too much. The one I do hate, though, is more passive slows. Part of what makes WW monks such a well built class is that they DO have to apply their slow with a global and expend energy. We don't need more rogues/ferals/frost dks who just slow you with zero thought involved IMHO.
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#37 Nerdstomperr

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:07 PM

you guys are still over looking resources of each class rage mana focues energy its endless people don't have to manage it any more that's one of the problems in this game mages not going oom only few dps casters ever goo oom I mean hybrids healing for a shit ton.

all these things realy need to be tond down caster dps should be going oom if they cant land kills allowing them to reset fight when ever they feel like it is retarded.

on top of melee resources I feel that they could adjust where at least to give caster a chanse some how if we dumb dmg in cds we should have to rebuild are resources not just oh hey I got my resources back again that would put some skill back into the game imo
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#38 Battered

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

Having played a warrior during vanilla and most of TBC then taking a long break and coming back for MoP I can honestly say the warrior is but a shadow of what it once was; the class just feels clunky, slow and out of date, it has no uniqueness, no defining moves. Warriors used to feel visceral to play, you knew that if you managed to close in on someone you're going to do major damage to them. The class might be close to balanced now, but it's so god damn boring to play.

Sword/mace/axe specialization, flurry and possibly the original windfury totem; a lot was going on back then with our damage output as arms. Warrior damage had really high standard deviation: one moment you were a chump, the next moment you were exploding someone. That feeling of randomness and unexpected outcome of the damage is what got me hooked on warriors in the first place. When they toned down damage randomness they also toned down the fun, now I just feel like I'm standing around hitting someone with a sponge toy when I'm outside of swifty and it's really NOT fun. I don't feel like I'm a threat like I used to be, people don't even mind me wailing on them outside of swifty. I'm not asking for Windfury back but something needs to be done to bring back that feeling of (possibly) exploding on someone when you close in on them.

I think one of the things I miss the most is incoming damage giving you rage (and Enrage!), that was a defining class trait; you knew that if you focused a warrior in PvP he's going to get really angry at you and that totally needs to come back.

A few things I think could improve warrior gameplay:
  • Stances & rage; remove the cooldown on stances, I don't get why this was put in at all. Differentiate the stances way more, it's a complete mess right now. We should be generating rage from white attacks in all stances, with the difference between the stances being modifiers on damage done/taken, it just provides a much smoother gameplay. Make us get rage when we are focused in all stances and reduce the rage generated by attacks like mortal strike to compensate, possibly varied by stance. If I'm being tunneled by two wizards you bet your ass I'm going to be angry and have a full rage bar. Also, bring back getting Enraged when being a victim of a critical strike in some form (pop enrage yo), if necessary remove it from some other abilities that generate it like colossus smash.
  • Fix god damn Shattering Throw, it's awful. You can't ever rely on having enough rage to use it in a pinch, and that's exactly when you need it! and on top of that it has a cast time?! the 5 minute cooldown I can sorta live with, but the other two are unacceptable.
  • Hamstring; either give warriors a 1s GCD or put Hamstring on its own separate 1s GCD. Combined with its rage cost and the limited rage we currently have it just feels clunky to use and a waste of a precious GCD and rage. Back when hamstring did damage and you had things that it could proc like mace stun/sword specialization/windfury/improved hamstring/weapon enchants it was actually a really good move, even though it did super low damage on its own. And yes, improved hamstring needs to make a comeback because it was the quintessential warrior tool.
  • More shield moves for Arms! I want to use revenge, I want to do non-terrible damage when I have a shield on, I want spell reflect on a lower cooldown.
  • Make armor matter; If I'm wearing plate it should give me some sort of advantage against physical damage classes. Right now nearly all attacks are either magic or bypass armor in some way.
  • Don't let disarm get trinketed; this and shockwave are our only peels. Also, I would like to see disarm do something to casters as well, perhaps reduce their damage/healing by a % when they are disarmed.
  • Heroic Leap glyph baseline, as other have said this is mandatory in the current meta game.
  • I am not completey sure on this one, but reduce the occurence of strikes of opportunity considerably (and the effect mastery has on it) and make it do twice the damage.

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#39 Poseyx

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

Rogue slow poison is on 50% RNG to apply, shiv has a 10 second cd 20energy cost can be blocked, parried etc. On top of this many classes have skills that clean poison slow completely or prevent them from applying for X seconds. Shuriken doesn't apply non lethal poisons anymore = no range slow. Honestly rogue is the worse class when it comes to slowing targets down, also crippling was nerfed this expansion from 70% to 50% movement speed slow. On top of rogue crap mobility not getting a slow proc when you open somebody is so fun.

Edit* Hamstring is also 100% physical slow which is much more better since a lot less things remove it.


please be a troll
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#40 Silhin

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:01 PM

holy crap r u guys high?
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