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The sad, sad state of warriors pt.2

please improve warriors

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#1 Braindance

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

Continuation from http://www.arenajunk...s/#entry3873772

Fellow warriors:

Intro

Although most of our defensive problems have been addressed (and I think that the above thread had something to do with it), we still remain a dry, uninvolved class with no real depth. Due to countless complains coming mostly from the all-mighty RMP classes we have been stripped of everything class defining characteristics we had, ranging from our (once) unparalleled mobility , to our (once) supreme consistent damage. We have been reduced to a slow, damage dealing machine with no other purpose and no real niche. We currently are nothing more than PvE mobs with minimal player input.

Causes

The reasons for the above are:
  • Most of our class defining tools have been given to other classes (and some have even been removed from us like improved hamstring) - mortal strike, high consistent damage, strong melee damage reductions debuffs (clap+demo shout), good mobility, undispellable peels (improved hamstring where are you, disarm)
  • WotLK, as much as I hated it as an expansion, did a good job in greatly enhancing the utility arsenal of each class when compared to BC. The two expansions that followed, increased the utility of every class BUT warriors. Instead, since the start of Cata, we kept losing more and more class defining skills (eg intercept). Currently in MoP, we are 3 expansions behind utility wise. Even during BC we had mace stun and improved hamstring, which, even though RNG, were extremely powerful and effective
  • From s6 and beyond the game became more centered around casters. As a follow up, melee started getting tools to deal with them (ams, silences, magic damage reducing abilities in short cd etc, ranged damage in the form of dots throws.coils etc). On the contrary, our one main defense against casters, spell reflect, was nerfed. Just some food for thought, no one cared about spell reflect fine during the entirety of WotLK where casters actually casted, but it became a thorn in the side of the disgusting vocal minority that enjoys rbgs. I find it outrageous that the one ability that required complete awareness of what is going on in the arena to use effectively was nerfed.
  • Most melee gained the same, if not superior, damage output. Dks, ferals, rets you name it. It is hilarious that classes with quadruple our tools can have the same pure damage output as the traditional damage dealing class. An added bonus; manyhybrid/dk attacks are not affected by armor (feral bleeds, dk diseases/necro, etc)
We have no niche; we can't fill any role better than anything else; for every warrior comp, there is a superior one that involves a different melee.

Possible solutions

We need something class-defining that other can’t do as well:

1. Unrelenting assault back in the game http://www.wowwiki.c...lenting_Assault . Yes you heard me, but this time the debuff is applied only to damage and not healing. Could be implemented in the form of a separate binding that expends 4 overpower charges to reduce spell damage by 50% for 6/8 seconds

2. Reflect to 20 seconds for arms/ fury only. 15 with the glyph

3. Mass spell reflect baseline

4. Damage done in defensive stance reduced by 10%, but we gain 6 rage per white attack

5. Glyph of heroic leap baseline since it’s mandatory

6. I would like to see some limited ranged utility - Heroic throw silences for 3 seconds (would be the weakest silence in the game but still some utility), or it applies a slow for 60% for a few seconds (like a weaker version of chains of ice)

7. Improved hamstring back

8. Revenge available to arms once again

9. After rallying cry falls, the hp % is retained.

10. Shockwave cooldown is reduced by 7 seconds for every target it hits, to a minimum of 20 seconds

11. Bladestorm baseline – it is a shame that one of our iconic abilities has to be at the same tier where shockwave is the beyond obvious choice. Warrior AoE even in pve is among the weakest around already anyway, so I think it makes sense

12. Hamstring either removed from the global cooldown, or “baked” into some other spell (slam is a good example)

13. Lower cd on reck/avatar/banner – lower the effect/duration to compensate. Avatar could also grant slow immunity for the duration (not snare immunity), since it’s relatively easy to peel a warrior already compared to other classes (no immunities like ams, cloak etc)

14. Reflect no longer requires a shield – this has absolutely nothing to do with skill, it’s purely a QoL improvement for ppl with an ms higher than 100

Most of the above changes are very easy to implement code-wise, merely by tweaking numbers.
If we get half of windwalker monks’ utility, we are saved. They are a paradigm for a well-designed class, with excellent utility and very intricate spells (zen meditation comes to mind)

Please feel free to add your ideas/comments, but do so in a concise format so that Ghostcrawler/Holinka/devs can easily browse through, without spending too much time.
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Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...


#2 Capers

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:50 PM

I feel like at least halving the CD on stance changing would be nice too. It's annoying having to wait 4 seconds to even go back to def stance.

Or at least make it possible to change while stunned. It's less skill involved, but it would be nice to swap once in a while for rage w/o worrying about getting one shot.
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#3 Persephones

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

Played warrior to Rank 11 back in Vanilla, got glad multiple times in TBC playing WLS/WMD etc. Always raided on it and felt a certain connection to it. I wanted to pick mine up again as an alt with the new catch-up system, but the class just feels flat out boring to play. Every other melee has their slow baked into another damaging ability, when you go defensive you actually turtle up unlike the rest etc etc. The warrior class just feels super outdated compared to DK/Monk and even other oldschool classes.
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The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.


#4 meshu

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

Warrior is almost balanced, I'd agree that you could get a silence and bladestorm baseline but anything else would make it too strong. They should focus on tuning down other classes first.
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You're a RBG hero, you have no say in Arenas. You only say this because you can kill some one with one button in RBG's and not be killed, sorry buddy, but RBGS =/= Arenas.

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#5 Evilcow

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

I have to say I agree with most of your points, the only points I would change would be:

10. 5 seconds for every target it hits, to a minimum of 25 seconds. Your version seems a little too strong, specially with bladestorm baseline.

12. Even though I would like for slam to apply a slow effect, they would probably rather make HS glyph baseline and reduce HS rage cost a little.

Everything else seems to be spot on to me.
I would also like for stances to be 1.5s CD and for Mortal Strike to reset it's CD if it misses or gets dodged/parried/etc...
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#6

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:07 PM

warriors are quite weak atm, but i think its just cause Ele/enha/hunters and disc priests are just so strong, cant wait till 5.4 (in 6months) to see what they adress this with..
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#7 Maleficent

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

Unfortunately I feel this type of overhaul is only feasible in an expansion update. Awesome ideas, none the less.
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#8 Ayrasaurus

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

I think warriors are decent i just think ele and lock portal is retarded (We do fine vs hunters).
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#9 meshu

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:32 PM

Holinka confirmed on Twitter that there will be PvP tweaks in the next week's patch when the server goes down, that means Wednesday.
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You're a RBG hero, you have no say in Arenas. You only say this because you can kill some one with one button in RBG's and not be killed, sorry buddy, but RBGS =/= Arenas.

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#10 Braindance

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:46 PM

I think warriors are decent i just think ele and lock portal is retarded (We do fine vs hunters).

Holinka confirmed on Twitter that there will be PvP tweaks in the next week's patch when the server goes down, that means Wednesday.

warriors are quite weak atm, but i think its just cause Ele/enha/hunters and disc priests are just so strong, cant wait till 5.4 (in 6months) to see what they adress this with..

It's not about being weak - it's about not having a good time while playing warrior. I see my mage getting roflstomped by every hunter and their mother and I can do nothing. A ret or a feral or anything else can do something to prevent that - we are very limited in that aspect. We have by far the worst peel toolset in the game for our partners. I got some losses against some hunter cleaves and then in my blind rage I decided to pop reck in the first 10 seconds of each game vs hunters - and it does work better to some extent. Are you satisfied with that? Because I am not. I would like to be able to help my teammates more than just peeling with sheer damage and the occasional charge/intervene to stop cc chains.

We are viable yes, but we suffer the same fate as rogues. We have been replaced by hybrids that do what we can do better than we do.
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Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...


#11 Xsv

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:53 PM

9. After rallying cry falls, the hp % is retained.

this has killed me more than other people have.

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#12 XtraT

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

There's private servers for all your nostalgia needs, OP. I'm playing a warrior on a TBC server atm. Unbalanced but unique!
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#13 kagan

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 05:34 PM

i dont agree with alot of this. warriors are pretty solid and dont need most of this. however people choose not to adapt.


edit: one thing i would like back is our niche, 25% ms or something would be pure sex.

Edited by kagan, 08 June 2013 - 05:40 PM.

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#14 Capers

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

i dont agree with alot of this. warriors are pretty solid and dont need most of this. however people choose not to adapt.


edit: one thing i would like back is our niche, 25% ms or something would be pure sex.


Even if we're "fine" we're still boring as shit and provide nothing to the team but damage.
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#15 baltothedog

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

6. I would like to see some limited ranged utility - Heroic throw silences for 3 seconds (would be the weakest silence in the game but still some utility), or it applies a slow for 60% for a few seconds (like a weaker version of chains of ice)


NOOOO
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#16 kagan

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:23 PM

Even if we're "fine" we're still boring as shit and provide nothing to the team but damage.


untrue, but what would make us less boring.
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#17 djp771133

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

I don't know when they decided to make every hybrid have all the damage of a rogue/warrior other class, and keep the utility. Game is total trash atm, go play a game which might remotely require a brain such as LoL or dota 2
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#18 Nerdstomperr

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

I have to agree by far the worst melee in the game atm yeah good warriors will shine but so meny class are truly broken like ele ehn shamans I mean zerker rage still is a 30 sec cd on it where warriors are fear for days still its not like you can spam dispel any more like the old says witch.

made warriors shine more back then iv played tbc untell w warriors are the worst class in the game for 2 expacks now.
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#19 Cigard

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:51 PM

yes warriors really bad at peeling,
we need a more useful skill like Roar of Sacrifice / Hand of Sacrifice,
intervene/safeguard is jk
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#20 Tribalqtx

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

I agree with most of this, alot of our mechanics are completely outdated. We've all been saying the same thing since s5...why should a DK/rogue/ret be able to pop their defensives and continue a relentless assault of damage whereas we waddle around seeking pillars to save us.

It just seems to me that the class has had far too much taken away from it, and nothing added to compensate.

There is literally nothing that defines a warrior any more since all of our ''iconic'' abilities have been slowly granted to other classes. healing reduction should be warriors only, hence a need to have one in a team. Our mobility would be amazing, if every other class couldn't move as much, if not more. Even last season, the only reason we got into a team was because our damage was retarded, and we were unpeelable wrecking machines. Things like that never last, and now look where we are. We're not far off being decent, Hybrid utility and DK damage are the thorn in my side atm. I sorta just wish we were a legit choice alongside a DK/ret/feral. My best 3s this season was a 2.3 KFC and they said the same thing, what's the point in taking a warrior and struggling at mediocre rating, or take any half decent dk/ret/feral and get just as high with a third of the effort.

I'm not in a position to say what should be done to the class to fix it, I'm just well aware there's something not right.

We're stuck with the same question we have been for a while now.

''why take a warrior?''
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