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Help salvage s13: We need Hunters fixed!


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#1 brosearch

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

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Please guys post on official forums too. I would love to que again, but Hunters alone ruin arena.
http://us.battle.net...opic/9245384869

I want to start by clarifying that I have no personal animosity against Hunters. I am not the typical wow pvper who wants to see xxx class nerfed into oblivion because I have a long lasting hatred toward said class. Having said that, arena is totally unplayable currently because of Hunters. Yes it is unplayable; this is not an exaggeration. There is absolutely no chance of enjoying arena while hunters exist in their current state.

I am not making this post to whine about WOW or MOP. I prefer not to do such things. I am not going to make a long post about all the changes this game needs in order to have amazing pvp. I can deal with many absurd things happening in this game. I can deal with elemental shamans getting proc after proc and doing a ton of damage without casting. I can deal with mages not casting and doing crazy damage in a deep freeze. I can deal with feral druids hitting really really hard. I can deal with death knights having more trinkets than the pvp vendor. I can deal with a destro locks chaos bolt during their cds. I can deal with shamans having a 36 sec tremor totem. I can deal with psyfiend being extremely annoying. Clearly, there are many things in this game which present unique challenges. However all of the things listed above are avoidable and/or defendable. One of the key attributes among good players is their ability to counter imbalances such as these through the use of CDs, positioning, and coordination with their team.

That is the key point where Hunters step into a realm of God status. A Hunters arsenal is such that other players are entirely subject to the will of the Hunter. If a Hunter wants, he gets. If I beat a hunter team, it’s because he failed to beat me because of his mistakes. I didn’t beat him; he beat himself. I am being 100% serious here. With all that a Hunter can do, a loss on his part is his fault. Moreover, he could have done something different and there would be no way in which I could have beaten him. That is unacceptable. This is precisely why arena currently can’t be played seriously, and more importantly it can’t be enjoyed.

I won’t list all Hunter abilities. Rather, ill list the abilities or reasons why a Hunter is so governing.

1. The damage a Hunter does is far beyond high. This is the biggest problem with Hunters. The damage output they are capable of doing is not acceptable. It’s not healable in any way. You can’t stop it, and you can’t LOS it. Hilariously, the Hunter isn’t even the one doing most of the damage. His pets are the ones doing a majority of the damage, and those pets move like superman so you aren’t getting away. I am not sure why Hunter damage went up in 5.3, but it’s out of control right now in a big way.

2. Their control is instant, there is a lot of it, it’s ranged and it’s unavoidable. You can’t stop /cast [@focus] scatter trap, or /cast [@focus] pet stun thing, or /cast [@focus] silencing shot, and they can full trap off scatter or the pet stun OR the disengage 8 sec AOE physical root. Any hunter can land a full trap if he uses his disengage root, pet stuns a healer’s partner so they can’t eat the trap, or simply coordinates with his team. However he doesn’t even need a full trap for kills BECAUSE his damage is so damn high/instant/unavoidable. To make matters worse, they can Readiness and have access to scatter, trap and silencing shot yet again lol. In past expansions, if you ate traps, you could survive hunter cleaves. It’s truly sad but this is no longer the case. This just might be from a warlock perspective, but if I try to stand on my healer for the 3 secs scatter is on him, I’ll die before the trap even activates. Literally I have to gateway the instant they connect on me or I am dead. I can’t tell you how many times I have used my pet sac, unending resolve, fel regen and healthstone all right away, only to die through all of it as if I pulled a raid boss who one shot me.

3. The hunter isn’t controllable in any reliable way for the first few mins of a game. BM provides a trinket effect, they obviously have the regular pvp trinket, and they can readiness BM too. These are 3 ways in which the Hunter is able to free himself of any CC which enables him to assert his control and damage as he sees fit. If he wanted, he has other ways to avoid additional control attempts too, but I’ll just leave those out for now. Back to the point, you can’t stun a Hunters opener, or fear or blind it. He is going to be free period. This is a massive problem because he also has the other 2 arrows in his quiver as I mentioned above (his unreal damage and his puppet master like control). If the hunter wasn’t able to do insane damage to people, then he being free would be far less of a concern. If a hunter wasn’t able to control a healer so easily, reliably, and in a way that can’t be avoided, then him being free would also not be such an issue. However he does have all this damage and all this control, so giving him the ability to remain free to assert these things makes matters infinitely direr.

These 3 main issues combined are what make Hunters the problem they are now. 5.3 brought some changes that enable me to play my warlock in a way that is somewhat enjoyable now (I can actually do some meaningful damage). I would love to que 3v3 again, but every time I do there is an onslaught of Hunter teams who basically win by default. About 80% of all 3v3 teams have a hunter, so there is no escaping them. Additionally, it’s not just warlocks who get absolutely destroyed by these Hunter teams. When you are a God among mortals, you take everyone to pound town. NO class can really enjoy arena as long as Hunters stay like they are. I sincerely hope even Hunters themselves realize it can’t be fun like this. Lebron James wouldn’t go play basketball at the local gym because it’s not fun to play versus those who stand no chance at winning.

I challenge anyone to go watch some streams of 3v3. You will see how prevalent and utterly dominant Hunters are. Even vs. top players, they impose their will with little to no effort. I know blizzard isn’t a fan of pvp only fixes but I don’t see any other way in this situation.

Their damage needs to go way down, the BM trinket effect removed altogether, and their control must be reduced (maybe make a target immune to scatter if he has been silencing shot and vice versa). No class should have it all. If nothing is done about Hunters, this season is completely lost. There is no debating that fact.

Thanks for your support and consideration.
Brodizzlex

Edited by brosearch, 06 June 2013 - 06:10 PM.


#2 augiddin

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:10 PM

Hunters are not the sole problem with arena right now, not even close infact.

#3 brosearch

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:13 PM

View Postaugiddin, on 06 June 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Hunters are not the sole problem with arena right now, not even close infact.

there are lots of dumb things no question. however, nothing comes close to ruining arena like hunters. if they were toned down it would be infinitely more enjoyable.

#4 robztr

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:17 PM

remove that bw is breaking cc, Remove the web from disengage, nerf ferals/dk/ret dmg and hunter comps won't be as strong and actually peelable.

and change the way spiritshell works because most hunter comps atm is basically spirit shell, rush in mongo like never b4 and win^^

Edited by robztr, 06 June 2013 - 06:18 PM.


#5 hoodrych

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:19 PM

did you not mention explosive trap

#6 brosearch

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

View Posthoodrych, on 06 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

did you not mention explosive trap

ran out of room man. the list is very long. i tried to focus on the 3 things which i believe are the most important

Edited by brosearch, 06 June 2013 - 06:21 PM.


#7 Ayrasaurus

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:22 PM

I hate eles far more than i hate hunters tbh but ye both are fucking insane and something does need to be done.



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#8 hc4b

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:23 PM

+ rep brodizzle, hit it right on the head. I also believe that these said hybrids (ret,feral,enhance) have quite a bit of damage but if hunters were toned down it would in turn tone down these specs as well

#9 augiddin

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:27 PM

Can someone bring up the fact that with the exception of feral Druids melee would pretty much seize to exist if all they did was nerf hunters?

#10 brosearch

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:30 PM

make sure you guys click on the link to the official forums because they dont read aj. they do read the damage dealing forums.

#11 Broxxy

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:36 PM

BM...what an abomination of a spec. Any nerfs need to be exclusive to this spec. Hope its gutted. NIce job Brodizzle

#12 Persephones

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

It's not like hunters are the sole reason s13 is shit. Spell cleaves is just as big of an issue - It's super boring to fight against retards that just afk right outside pillars, resulting in a 45 min draw or a loss if you try to get something going (i.e overextend by moving more than 10 yards away from your pillars, since you'll die to random burst)

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#13 Mirionx

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

Hunters, ele shams and mages are the top gamers right now really, if they nerf those DKs would just be the best.

#14 Panera

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

I'm sure everyone that play arena right now knows how dumb hunters are, even if you don't write this there's already a million hunter QQ posts, but nonetheless good job. I love how these 2k before patch hunter suddenly 2400 start shit talking about how good they are and threating me to que, it cracks me up.

#15

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

The biggest problem with hunters is readiness. Compare readiness to Prep and Cold Snap. Cold Snap resets the cooldown on Iceblock, frost nova, and Cone of cold, Prep resets the cooldown of sprint, vanish, evasion, and dismantle. Readiness on the otherhand resets Beastial wrath, rapid fire, silence shot, scatter shot, trap, glaive toss, literally everything. If Cold Snap and prep were as good as readiness they would reset frostbomb/deep/counterspell/orb/dance/bomb/CloS/exc exc.

Veev literally readiness's 20 seconds into the game entirelly for damage, he's not even ccing with it, he's just readinessing to pop mor cooldowns and glaive toss/kill command harder, its absurd.

That being said, while hunters absolutely need to be nerfed, if/when they get nerfed, ele/mage/locks/ will be everything, and melee that isn't feral will pretty much be dead.

#16 Sabyth

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:59 PM

View Postaugiddin, on 06 June 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Can someone bring up the fact that with the exception of feral Druids melee would pretty much seize to exist if all they did was nerf hunters?
Emphasis on this. Give Hunters a small nerf but I really don't want to face nothing but caster cleaves if the overdo it on Hunters. Taking Scatter and BW off Readiness should be more than enough.

#17 kazuhmeer

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 06 June 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

That being said, while hunters absolutely need to be nerfed, if/when they get nerfed, ele/mage/locks/ will be everything, and melee that isn't feral will pretty much be dead.

this is what im scared will happen.  obv ele is on the radar but mages hit ubserdly hard right now its just the hunter overlords are beating them into the dirt.

feral is essentially a non peelable class by other melee, excluding another feral.  if they have 100% uptime, which they do most of the time, why are they doing such insane amounts of damage combined with heart of the wild healing?  feral isn't being bitched about nearly enough, they are as bad as hunters.

#18 Filthpig

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:20 PM

It's not even so much hunter teams as it is priest/hunter teams you should add. I find any hunter team that is playing with a shaman or paladin to be very manageable, when you couple them with Spirit Shell and Psychic Scream is when they get ridiculous. I personally think that Spirit Shell should just be redesigned because you're at an obvious major disadvantage to priest teams because they have double your health at the start of a match. When a Hunter can go as hard as he wants without having to worry about dying you start getting problems.

Of course Hunters have way too much Instant CC and do too much damage, but I thought that the priest tidbit was pretty important to add. IMO just remove scatter shot all together since it's purpose is no longer clear (was added so you could gain distance and get out of dead zone) and just make trap an instant CC on a 45s cooldown. You have a lot less CC overall, but your main CC is more reliable similar to Hex for enhancement shamans.

Edited by Filthpig, 06 June 2013 - 07:21 PM.


#19 Djandawg

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:48 PM

View Postbrosearch, on 06 June 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Please guys post on official forums too. I would love to que again, but Hunters alone ruin arena.
[..]

This is the exact thing I have been saying. Many people made the 3 points you made tons of times but there are a few hunters here that swarm the topic repping each other, posting stuff like::
-Well, wizards can do the same thing, actually wizards are worse, look at the ladders etc
-It;s BM guys. MM is completely fine, followed by inserting an MM buffing discussion in that thread.
-Hunters are fine because you can eat trap? Look at mages, they are OP!!

Now almost every new thread is about hunter nerfs because people can't play arena anymore.
Those who think the game is shit are wrong it isn't.  It has so much potential to be more fun than previous expansions. You can form bunch of decent comps because many classes have actually good synergy but we reached a point that that doesn't matter anymore. What matters is, does your comp have the synergy to deal with hunters. I know this because I mainly play with friends and we have bunch of melee classes, mage, lock; druid and priest as healer. We can't manage to make a comp that we can play without getting shut down by hunters.

And elemental shamans? They have been good for 2 weeks. They are easy to fix, all it takes is a proc nerf.
Hunters need to lose:
-Disengange root, it shuts down a team completely and it's not even dispellable.
-Triple trinket, at least they can put a debuff with readiness so that the next one doesn't break them out of CC.
-Possibly some dps.

Edited by Djandawg, 06 June 2013 - 07:50 PM.


#20 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:51 PM

@Brodizzle, Idk if this is true or not but blink strike change is probably a huge reason why damage went up, It makes pets attacks do 50% more and pretty much unkitable, pretty sure it also affects stampede, also with their 4 set change they consistantly have ~2% pvp power more now compared to whatever it used to give from rapid fire.

As for warlocks.. I have the same probably on my lock but with most cleaves tbh. Feral Enhance killed me through every single cd and Mid Gateway too cause bleeds/enhance being ranged (with cds up) So I don't know if it's only hunters that are the issue but they have very crazy sustained.

BM is the only spec that needs to be looked at though, mark is actually fine imo.




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