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Resil is probably better than you currently think


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#1 Veev

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:53 AM

I just finished redesigning my spreadsheets for hunter/warrior/warlock, and was a bit surprised at how effective resilience still is.  The spreadsheet can be found here: www.veevsvault.com/files/veevs-pvp-spreadsheet.xlsx (if you don't have Excel, you can download it and upload it to Google spreadsheets, but I don't wish to myself since it butchers the functionality)

Even if you're not a hunter/warrior/warlock, you may find some of the information on it helpful.  The resilience formula was actually changed in 5.3, and after a lot of trial and error I determined it to be the following:

Damage Reduction = 0.65 + 0.35*(Resilience/(Resilience+23133))
(The 23133 number is accurate to plus or minus 9 points.)

After patch 5.3, it seems like a lot of people (myself included) have been falsely assuming that resil is no longer worth gemming for, due to it being cut in half on gems without any other real gain.  But for warriors, for example, it is actually easier to achieve 1% damage reduction through gems than it is to achieve 1% damage gain.  It seems that hunters and warlocks still benefit more from gemming damage, but the point is that it is actually very close, close enough where personal preference should probably decide which you go for.

So to all the complaints of one shots and such, realize that resil is still a very viable option.  If you are a blacksmith and were to go full resilience gems, completely ignoring all socket bonuses (not really recommended), then with a resil chest enchant and PvP meta you could reach 2895 resilience.  This translates into 68.89% damage reduction, which means you would take 11.12% less damage than someone with base resil.  Fairly significant, especially if more people start gemming like that, since that means damage would go down by about the same amount.  If you are a blacksmith and gem for full resil without ignoring socket bonuses, you would have 2415 resil, which is 9.45% less damage than someone with base resil.

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Please feel free to play around with changing resil values and such on the spreadsheet, to get an idea of how effective it may be for you.  And while, unfortunately, I don't have enough time to try and generate stat weights for all of the different classes and specs, you can take a look at the three present and get a rough idea of how it might translate to your class.  (Pay close attention to the "gem values" for both resil and your highest DPS stat, to determine which is more beneficial.)

Also, please feel free to review my math and logic and look for any errors.  I think it's all sound and good, but I'm not a math major, and I love being proven wrong.

#2 Marshmellow

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:03 AM

Nicely done, def going to try gemming full resil again, hopefully more people do it as well
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#3 AcerMVP

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:05 AM

That's easy to say as a warrior. If rogues gem Resil, we lose damage. If we gem for damage, we die even quicker than before. So yea, at this moment, since we already get 65% resil, might as well go for the damage to try and compete with the rest of these classes.

#4 Braindance

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:05 AM

http://www.arenajunk...53/page__st__20

Called it 2 days ago.

Cy@

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#5 Veev

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostAcerMVP, on 01 June 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

That's easy to say as a warrior. If rogues gem Resil, we lose damage. If we gem for damage, we die even quicker than before. So yea, at this moment, since we already get 65% resil, might as well go for the damage to try and compete with the rest of these classes.

Yeah, as I said, it's really going to be personal preference.  My aim was to point out that resil is an equally viable option for people.

On my hunter, I still plan on staying pretty much full damage, but that's because my mongo playstyle benefits from it. :P

#6 Zunniyaki

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:26 AM

They need to revert Resilience gems or increase the base resil to 70%, either way if people went back to resil and stopped offensive gemming the current state could be "somewhat less retarded"
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#7 dominera

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:31 AM

Good post! I will still stay offensive gemmed on my feral cause i actually like it alot. But this is good info indeed. What is the best gemming for FC in rbgs, do you think stamina is the way to go or might resi be better?

#8 Wutangrza

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

Glad the math worked out Veev. I actually think comps like shatterplay have been making a huge mistake by gemming for as much damage as possible.

There's no way you out-mongoloid hunter/ret or hunter/enhance as shatterplay, but, if you can live the opener and force the game to go long, you're going to have a definite advantage.(Not saying hunters are balanced or anything, just saying strategy wise, there's no way you win that race as a wiz cleave.)

I'm hoping this information spreads quickly, as I'm guessing it'll do a lot to quell a lot of the 5.3 complaints, as well as improve the overall relative balance of the game.

edit: Dominera, stamina doesn't even come close to resilience even after the gem nerf. When you think about it, resilience not only reduces the damage you take, but it also makes heals you receive more effective as they end up healing you for larger amounts in terms of EHP.

Edited by Wutangrza, 01 June 2013 - 06:43 AM.


#9 Wutangrza

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 06:47 AM

View PostZunniyaki, on 01 June 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

They need to revert Resilience gems or increase the base resil to 70%, either way if people went back to resil and stopped offensive gemming the current state could be "somewhat less retarded"

If they reverted the resil gem nerf, random pieces of PvE gear would likely end up being BiS since they'd have extra gem sockets. Those sockets aren't free, but given how much weaker PvP power is, most people would be willing to give up some PvP power and say 80 primary stat and 160 off stat if it meant gaining 320 resilience.

#10 Thaya

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:02 AM

Yeah there was a discussion about this just recently.

People only looked at the resilience gem getting halved, completely ignoring the bump in base resilience. If they didn't halve the gem, resilience levels would become proper insane.

Something you could add to your post is comparing the total achievable levels of resilience in 5.3 and 5.2. That's something mentioned in the other thread and what I think is a very convincing argument to regem resil.
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#11 sarma

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:21 AM

So resil will fix it? Dont think so
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#12 Persephones

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:35 AM

View PostThaya, on 01 June 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Yeah there was a discussion about this just recently.

People only looked at the resilience gem getting halved, completely ignoring the bump in base resilience. If they didn't halve the gem, resilience levels would become proper insane.

Something you could add to your post is comparing the total achievable levels of resilience in 5.3 and 5.2. That's something mentioned in the other thread and what I think is a very convincing argument to regem resil.

But the point is that the end result isn't the deciding factor. What if baseline resilience was buffed to 69% and resi gems gave maybe 20 each. That would still bring you to ~70% if you gemmed resi, does that mean it's worthwhile to gem resilience? No. It would certainly not be worth the gem slots, since you'd get much better gains from going damage. You need to look at the value of the gems, not what you'll end up with in the end.

I'm glad my train of thought was proved wrong, however my post was still from a warlock point of view, and Veev proved once again that damage (at least for warlocks) is at a much better ratio than defensive when it comes to gemming.

@Veev - Keep it up man, it's such a great help for the community.

Edited by Persephones, 01 June 2013 - 07:36 AM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#13 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:37 AM

View PostWutangrza, on 01 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Glad the math worked out Veev. I actually think comps like shatterplay have been making a huge mistake by gemming for as much damage as possible.
its probably smartest to get two gear sets, one with full resi for fighting all the 1800 hunters currently at 2.4, and one with full offensive stats since some wizard cleave mirrors already last 20 mins anyway until an ele shaman on either team gets enough procs to global something

View PostPersephones, on 01 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

But the point is that the end result isn't the deciding factor.
the end result is whether or not you live vs a hunter ret/feral/dk/enhance, i would say the end result is completely the deciding factor

View PostPersephones, on 01 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

however my post was still from a warlock point of view, and Veev proved once again that damage (at least for warlocks) is at a much better ratio than defensive when it comes to gemming.

View PostVeev, on 01 June 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

It seems that hunters and warlocks still benefit more from gemming damage, but the point is that it is actually very close, close enough where personal preference should probably decide which you go for.
:P

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 01 June 2013 - 07:42 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#14 Persephones

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 01 June 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

the end result is whether or not you live vs a hunter ret/feral/dk/enhance, i would say the end result is completely the deciding factor

So if you take my example of baseline resi buffed to 69%, you'd still gem resi just to get to that "magical" 70% like you were able to do before 5.3? The entire point of gearing a character is to get the maximum benefits in each slot and that includes gems.

You could apply the same logic for achieving kills. I feel it's very binary - Either you got enough damage to score a kill, or you don't. I'd rather die in the first 3 minutes than lose after 45 because I wasn't able to deal enough damage.

Anyways I don't want to take the discussion here just because you can't seem to get off my dick for whatever reason. Let's just leave it at "it comes down to personal preference"

Edited by Persephones, 01 June 2013 - 08:09 AM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#15 Braindance

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

Buffing base resilience more is the wrong way. It would hurt classes that need zero changes on their damage or even buffs. Why nerf:
a ) Rogues
b ) Warriors
c ) Locks
d ) Monks
e ) Mages
f ) Shadow priests
at the same time, because there are those retarded hybrid specs that do way more damage than they are supposed to. Why:

a ) Can ferals heal a whole team with HotW, have decent off heals, utility through clone and roots, and at the same time top tier damage?
b ) Dks deal AoE damage equal to warlocks and sustained single target equal to warriors?
c ) Are enhancements equal to 5.1 warriors during cds?
d ) Elemental shaman can fish for procs for minutes till stars align and they gib you with instants at the end?
e ) Rets have exceptional utility now through x2 dispel and off heals and they can do almost the same damage as I do during their cds?
f  ) Are hunters still in the game?

Practically, why can all those hybrid specs retain their utility AND AT THE SAME TIME do as much damage as purely damage oriented classes?

And btw hunters are simply disgusting - no excuses any more. It's not the CC so much as the damage and BW. They do waaaaaaaaay too much damage for the control they have - hunters never had that much sustained damage.

Why are rogues getting replaced by hybrids? I see multi rank one rogues getting ditched for 1/2 times glad ferals. And why does everyone has so much utility and warriors don't. Wtf is this

Nerf  hammer now.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#16 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostPersephones, on 01 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

So if you take my example of baseline resi buffed to 69%, you'd still gem resi just to get to that "magical" 70% like you were able to do before 5.3? The entire point of gearing a character is to get the maximum benefits in each slot and that includes gems.
your example is a retarded example that would never actually exist, but even in your example, gemming full resilience if gems gave 20 resi would give you 3.1% damage reduction, which is still not completely shit.

it skipped my mind, but how much additional damage reduction were u able to get last patch if u gemmed full resi? wasnt it around 10%-11%? they buffed base resi and nerfed the gems, but the damage reduction you get from having a full resi set is still around 9%-10%, ie, VIRTUALLY JUST AS GOOD :)

View PostBraindance, on 01 June 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Practically, why can all those hybrid specs retain their utility AND AT THE SAME TIME do as much damage as purely damage oriented classes?
because their pvp design philosophy since wotlk ended has been that every class should have the same basic tools, regardless of what additional unique tools certain classes had beforehand that compensated for their lack of basic tools. and so we have resto/ele shamans that can break fear on their whole team every 30 seconds and still do everything that other casters do, ferals/ret get interrupts and awesome damage while already having far higher uptime and far better utility/off healing then warriors/rogues, etc etc

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 01 June 2013 - 08:14 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#17 Thaya

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:09 AM

View PostPersephones, on 01 June 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

But the point is that the end result isn't the deciding factor.
Really?
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#18 Persephones

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:14 AM

It's not retarded, it's an overexxagerated example to try and make you understand the entire concept of gearing and maximising your character to the fullest, but apparently in vain. You clearly haven't done any half serious pve, ever.

And to the above, yes. Why is it so difficult to understand? You need to look at the value that each invidual gem gives you, not the end result. That's just eye candy. If you take my overexxagerated example, you'd still gem resilience just because LOL I'D GET THE SAME DAMAGE REDUCTION AS I DID BEFORE, even though the gains of actually gemming defensive is so small (in this case a mere 1%).

I'll just give up, since apparently you just can't phantom it.

Edited by Persephones, 01 June 2013 - 08:18 AM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#19 Braindance

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 01 June 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

your example is a retarded example that would never actually exist, but even in your example, gemming full resilience if gems gave 20 resi would give you 3.1% damage reduction, which is still not completely shit.

it skipped my mind, but how much additional damage reduction were u able to get last patch if u gemmed full resi? wasnt it around 10%-11%? they buffed base resi and nerfed the gems, but the damage reduction you get from having a full resi set is still around 9%-10%, ie, VIRTUALLY JUST AS GOOD :)


because their pvp design philosophy since wotlk ended has been that every class should have the same basic tools, regardless of what additional unique tools certain classes had beforehand that compensated for their lack of basic tools. and so we have resto/ele shamans that can break fear on their whole team every 30 seconds and still do everything that other casters do, ferals/ret get interrupts and awesome damage while already having far higher uptime and far better utility/off healing then warriors/rogues, etc etc
Sure hybrids want damage - strip them of everything then. Right now I'm playing a class with no niche.

They took my niche.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#20 Dreamex

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 01 June 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

it skipped my mind, but how much additional damage reduction were u able to get last patch if u gemmed full resi? wasnt it around 10%-11%? they buffed base resi and nerfed the gems, but the damage reduction you get from having a full resi set is still around 9%-10%

Last patch if you went full resil with BS you would go from ~62-69% which is ~20% effective reduction
This patch with full resil with BS +pvp meta you go from 65-68.89% which is 11.12% effective reduction.

20% vs 11.12%. The difference is actually even bigger than this because you couldn't get the pvp meta last patch.

Edited by Dreamex, 01 June 2013 - 08:32 AM.





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