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Resilience formula in 5.3?


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#1 Veev

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 10:58 PM

Does anyone know the resilience formula in 5.3?  I know it changed in 5.2.  I'm not sure if they changed it at all in 5.3, besides the 65% baseline reduction.

I actually can't even find the 5.2 formula, despite a decent amount of Googling...

#2 Deonto

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:02 PM

http://www.arenajunk...silience-guide/


Should be the same in 5.3.

Aside from the pvp power stuff that is....

Edited by Deonto, 30 May 2013 - 11:03 PM.

Posted Image
All credit goes to Beldam for this (amazing) meme.

#3 Marshmellow

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:04 PM

I believe the only formula that changed was the pvp power one
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#4 Veev

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:20 PM

Thanks!

Reduction %  = ((11724*0.4)+x)/(11727+x)

Edit: I'm not sure his formula is right... my warlock has 975 resil and 65+1.42 dmg reduction

((11724*0.4)+975)/(11727+975) = 0.45

Doesn't seem right?  Not really sure what I'm confused on.

#5 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 11:46 PM

View PostVeev, on 30 May 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

Thanks!

Reduction %  = ((11724*0.4)+x)/(11727+x)

Edit: I'm not sure his formula is right... my warlock has 975 resil and 65+1.42 dmg reduction

((11724*0.4)+975)/(11727+975) = 0.45

Doesn't seem right?  Not really sure what I'm confused on.
actually never mind, thats what it was last patch

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 31 May 2013 - 01:00 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#6 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:01 AM

Did you just derive that from 1.42/975?  Because using that same value, multiplying it by 280 resil would give 0.408% reduct (rounded to 0.41%).  But 280 resil actually gives 0.42.

I'm trying to find the exact number to use.  I'm sure 0.00145641 is close, but it doesn't seem to be the exact one.

#7 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:21 AM

View PostVeev, on 31 May 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Did you just derive that from 1.42/975?  Because using that same value, multiplying it by 280 resil would give 0.408% reduct (rounded to 0.41%).  But 280 resil actually gives 0.42.

I'm trying to find the exact number to use.  I'm sure 0.00145641 is close, but it doesn't seem to be the exact one.
yea it was wrong, thats similar to what it was before they nerfed it in 5.2

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#8 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:17 AM

Assuming dmg reduction = resil / x, here are some potential values for x

80 resil / 666.67 = 0.12% reduct
280 resil / 666.67 = 0.42% reduct
975 resil / 686.62 = 1.42% reduct
1935 / 716.67 = 2.7% reduct

So x continues to climb, meaning it's definitely not a linear formula.  Tried messing around with trend lines in Excel but couldn't find a solid match.

#9 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 02:34 AM

Using the formula posted in that stickied thread, I see that it would give 65% reduct at 8380 resil.  I tried messing around w/ the numbers to figure out if everyone had a "hidden" 8380 resil now and the rest of the formula stayed in tact, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Using that formula, 8380 hidden resil + 1935 visible resil would give someone 68.07 reduct, but it actually gives 67.80.  So there definitely appears to be a new formula in 5.3.  Someone has to know what it is...

#10 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:59 AM

Found this formula on some other thread: 5.3: Reduction=0.65 + 0.35*(Resilience/(Resilience+20103))

But it's not even accurate :(

#11 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:25 AM

I think I figured it out: Reduction=0.65 + 0.35*(Resilience/(Resilience+23133))

That 23133 is +- 9 points or so, so not sure if it's the EXACT one, but pretty damn close if not.

#12 Wutangrza

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:08 AM

To give people some numbers, if you were to gem straight resil ignoring all socket bonuses and you had the PvP meta, and you were a blacksmith, you would have +2695 resilience, which, using Veev's numbers, would give you 68.65% damage reduction. This would be 10.43% more damage reduction than one would have at 65% resilience.

If you were to gem primarily resil while still matching socket bonuses, and you had the PvP meta, and you were a blacksmith, you would have +1895 resilience, which would give you 67.65% damage reduction. This would be 7.57% more damage reduction than base resilience.

Here's the graph of what the damage reduction looks like using Veev's numbers: http://www.wolframal...m x=0 to x=3000

#13 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 05:24 AM

Good ol' WRA, that's what I was using to help me figure most of this stuff out. :P Nice post.

So yeah, I'm actually surprised by the effectiveness of resil atm.  I'm working on redoing all of my spreadsheets, and was caught off guard to realize that resil is actually still better than strength or crit for warriors if your ONLY concern is comparing 1% dmg done vs 1% less dmg taken.  If you feel like you dying isn't the issue but your DPS is, then that's more of a personal preference thing obviously.

Could you guys please take a look at a rough draft of my spreadsheet and let me know if my math checks out: www.veevsvault.com/files/veevs-pvp-spreadsheet.xlsx

Basically what I do is get DPS stat weights from SimCraft, apply current PvP power to them and calculate new stat weights (and one for PvP power as well).  Then I take current resil, determine current dmg reduction, determine what amount of resil is needed to take 1% less damage, then compare that against what amount of DPS stats are needed to gain 1% more damage done... and then use that to determine a stat weight for resil.

I didn't know the actual resil formula this patch, so I just (falsely) assumed that with the 50% reduction on gems, it wouldn't really hold a candle to DPS stats anymore.  Seems I was wrong, but would like to get you guys to review my math/logic before I finish this up and post it in a more public forum.

#14 Wutangrza

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:02 AM

I'm going to hit the hay, but I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

I was actually really surprised everyone decided resil was worthless when 5.3 dropped. Certainly gemming PvP power is dog now, but gemming resil isn't awful imho, it's just situational. In 5.0-5.1 gemming resilience was OP, it had increasing returns. In 5.2 they made it have linear returns but it was still clearly the best thing to gem for almost every class in almost every situation, to the point where guys like Talb were gemming straight resil ignoring socket bonuses.

5.3 seems like it's the first time where it's actually a decision. As you've said, you want more damage, gem primary stat. You want to be beefier, gem resil.

I'm actually curious how the meta-game will change if your spreadsheet is right. Right now, lots of folks on the official forums are complaining about phys cleaves but they're all running 65% base resil. The strength of phys cleaves have typically been mongo out of the gate whereas a lot of caster cleaves were guaranteed wins when games went long. Perhaps part of the reason phys cleaves have been the target of such disdain lately is because casters have somewhat foolishly decided to become as glass cannon as possible (and they don't win the mongo race vs like hunter/enhance). If casters start gemming resil again, 5.3 could turn out to be one of the more balanced patches in a while. Neat stuff.

#15 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostVeev, on 31 May 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I didn't know the actual resil formula this patch, so I just (falsely) assumed that with the 50% reduction on gems, it wouldn't really hold a candle to DPS stats anymore.  Seems I was wrong, but would like to get you guys to review my math/logic before I finish this up and post it in a more public forum.
I think that's what everyone did, forgetting that they buffed base resilience and added a giant boost from the meta gem

There may be situations where gemming dps stats is still preferred so I think I'm getting two gear sets. Looks like the 27k  achievement might actually be useful, who knew :D

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#16 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostVeev, on 31 May 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Could you guys please take a look at a rough draft of my spreadsheet and let me know if my math checks out: www.veevsvault.com/files/veevs-pvp-spreadsheet.xlsx
it loses accuracy as you get to around 2k resilience, but i think thats because the formula needs to be more complicated then it is atm

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 31 May 2013 - 12:44 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#17 Askin

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:27 PM

if you need another data point:

Posted Image

#18 Thugjitsu

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 03:53 PM

Thank you Mathletes, definitely some good info here...
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#19 Wutangrza

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostAskin, on 31 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

if you need another data point:

Posted Image

Looks like Veev's numbers are pretty good then: 0.65 + 0.35*(10200/(10200+23133)) = 0.7571

#20 Veev

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 31 May 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

it loses accuracy as you get to around 2k resilience, but i think thats because the formula needs to be more complicated then it is atm
Can you explain why it loses accuracy?  I feel the only reason it loses accuracy is that you'd need to resim your character with less DPS stats on.  And it may be more precise to compare 0.1% damage reduction vs 0.1% damage done, but 1% is such a small number that I don't think it's too significant.

View PostAskin, on 31 May 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

if you need another data point:

Posted Image
Is that from this patch?  I don't see how you can get 10,200 resil this patch.  Armory link if so please.




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