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How to play Mutilate.

mutilate rogue switch from sub

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#41 wraithaur

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 02:39 AM

I have done some rough maths and removing all my agility gems \ enchants to gemming straight mastery would provide less damage. Below is some calcs on Deadly poison Dot damage just as an example.

What it takes into account is that loosing 4052 Attack Power provided by gems and enchants to gain 100% mastery only gives a tiny gain in flat poison damage.

This is me currently.
Formula for DP being 748 + (0.213*27291)*4 = 26243---------Where 27291 is my AP. 72.51% mastery boosts this to 45273 over 12 seconds. 18% crit boosts this too 53422 Damage over 12 seconds.

This is me with mastery to 100% (assumption that putting all mastery would only take me to 100% - dont have time to work it all out)
Take away 2026 Agility and you get 748 + (0.213*23239)*4 = 22791---------Where 23239 is my AP reduced to gain mastery. Apply 100% increase damage for 100% mastery this gives 45583 over 12 seconds. Loosing 1.6% crit from agility drop 16.4% Total damage would be 53058 over 12 seconds.

So the summary. Changing to completely mastery would be a damage loss when you take into account the damage from mutilate, dispatch, white damage and rapture. (this assumes a simular level of scaling for other poison based damage).

#42 wraithaur

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:34 AM

Did some more calcs with a certain level of assumption considering i don't have damage sources % so i did it just based on poison damage only. Worked out the sweet spot for Mastery being 79.5% before you start loosing too much AP and Crit from your agility gems\enchants.

#43 AcerMVP

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:41 AM

View Postwraithaur, on 06 June 2013 - 03:34 AM, said:

Did some more calcs with a certain level of assumption considering i don't have damage sources % so i did it just based on poison damage only. Worked out the sweet spot for Mastery being 79.5% before you start loosing too much AP and Crit from your agility gems\enchants.

Wow this helps a lot actually! Thanks for doing the math as well. I'm right around that too, I had tried to do the math earlier when I wrote this thread and you just basically proved it more for me. Adding this post to the OP.

#44 wraithaur

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 04:01 AM

Yeh i got my DBA who is a numbers guru to do a shitload of calcs for me LOL. We had to make some assumptions like that Agility would slide on a perfect gradiant downwards as mastery increased in % just because its too hard to start working out gem scenarios etc. But I took the fact another poster had 110% mastery with 6% coming from a trinket. Which left 104%. Given that a lot of my gear is still 476 gear its safe to say i would be a few % behind on mastery just from gear alone. So i think the gradiant should be correct down to about maybe 1-2% of mastery gained for agility lost.
The real thing to gain from this whole excercise is that this is only on poison damage. Granted poison damage is alot of what we do, its not all of it. Even if mastery was better we need to accept that 40% or something of our damage comes from physical attacks. This heavily pushes the benefits towards agility. I would say that gemming 100% agility will always be better unless you are spending very little time on the kill target. If you wanted to just pad BG meters then go to 79% with reforges\gems\enchants. If you are doing it for arena reforge mastery and gem\enchant everything agility.
I haven't worked out yet if the PVP power socket bonuses are worth obtaining.

#45 Maumaux

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:36 PM

Great job Wraithaur! Nice to have some solid evidence around here. I've deciced to stay with Bad Juju also even though the proc in PVP is only like 2300 AGI its still AGI and it lasts for 40 seconds. In a group with shaman or pally now i sit at 85 percent mastery with full AGI gems. The damage in 3v3 or 5v5 is very impressive. Usually out damage my teams mage, DK and lock. Just have to swap alot and dot people up with rupture and poisons and watch people melt.

#46 AcerMVP

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostMaumaux, on 06 June 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Great job Wraithaur! Nice to have some solid evidence around here. I've deciced to stay with Bad Juju also even though the proc in PVP is only like 2300 AGI its still AGI and it lasts for 40 seconds. In a group with shaman or pally now i sit at 85 percent mastery with full AGI gems. The damage in 3v3 or 5v5 is very impressive. Usually out damage my teams mage, DK and lock. Just have to swap alot and dot people up with rupture and poisons and watch people melt.

That's fine, then when it comes to pulling off a kill, vanish, CS everyone, burst down kill target with vendetta and shadowblades and watch them drop even fast :D

I love swapping to druids, they literally get one shotted inside my bursts.

#47 Maumaux

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:56 PM

I love Sin rogue again, played it back in WOLK but maybe just got bored of Sub lately. Sin just seems alot more fun now. Sub is still good for sure and still play it occasionally but love having the option to play 2 very viable specs now.


Just watch out for MW Monks and damn detox, they are our bane. Cant keep up the damage it seems, or is that jsut MW Monks? :D

#48 celdo

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:52 AM

have you tried using first setbonus from t15 set and lose 30 energy+1k pvp power?
wondering if its worth it

The Rogue Item - Rogue T15 2P Bonus does apply to all finishers with a duration, including Slice and Dice, Kidney Shot, Recuperate, Envenom, and Rupture. In build 16446, the Kidney Shot increase was broken, but is fixed for the next build.

#49 Toastboy

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

good guide but I'll stick with sub.

#50 Galaleo

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:12 AM

View Postwraithaur, on 06 June 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Yeh i got my DBA who is a numbers guru to do a shitload of calcs for me LOL. We had to make some assumptions like that Agility would slide on a perfect gradiant downwards as mastery increased in % just because its too hard to start working out gem scenarios etc. But I took the fact another poster had 110% mastery with 6% coming from a trinket. Which left 104%. Given that a lot of my gear is still 476 gear its safe to say i would be a few % behind on mastery just from gear alone. So i think the gradiant should be correct down to about maybe 1-2% of mastery gained for agility lost.
The real thing to gain from this whole excercise is that this is only on poison damage. Granted poison damage is alot of what we do, its not all of it. Even if mastery was better we need to accept that 40% or something of our damage comes from physical attacks. This heavily pushes the benefits towards agility. I would say that gemming 100% agility will always be better unless you are spending very little time on the kill target. If you wanted to just pad BG meters then go to 79% with reforges\gems\enchants. If you are doing it for arena reforge mastery and gem\enchant everything agility.
I haven't worked out yet if the PVP power socket bonuses are worth obtaining.

Way over my head bro, but thank you.

#51 Bumstarhymes

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:33 AM

View PostMaumaux, on 06 June 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

Great job Wraithaur! Nice to have some solid evidence around here. I've deciced to stay with Bad Juju also even though the proc in PVP is only like 2300 AGI its still AGI and it lasts for 40 seconds. In a group with shaman or pally now i sit at 85 percent mastery with full AGI gems. The damage in 3v3 or 5v5 is very impressive. Usually out damage my teams mage, DK and lock. Just have to swap alot and dot people up with rupture and poisons and watch people melt.

Are you in full Tyrannical gear besides using Bad Juju? I'm sitting on 77.48 mastery gemming Agility. I have full Tyrannical besides using Relix of Xuen as one of my trinkets.

This is how I gemmed:

Blue Sockets: Assassin's Imperial Amethyst
Red Sockets: Delicate Primordial Ruby
Yellow Sockets: Adept Vermillion Onyx
Prismatic Sockets: Delicate Primordial Ruby
Meta Socket: Fleet Primal Diamond / Tyrannical Primal Diamond

#52 Gilthan

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:16 PM

What would be the best trinket to use for playing Mut... Shado-Pan (reforged), Badge of Conquest (on use), Insignia of Conquest (proc), or Relic of Xuen fully upgraded?

#53 Lord Xar

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostAcerMVP, on 06 June 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

That's fine, then when it comes to pulling off a kill, vanish, CS everyone, burst down kill target with vendetta and shadowblades and watch them drop even fast :D

I love swapping to druids, they literally get one shotted inside my bursts.

CS everyone and then burst down the kill target? Not to be snarky but Mut's energy regen and cost ratio of its abilities are so craptastic -- do you just autoattack for your burst with Shadowblades + Vendetta, because you ain't getting any energy for a while.. probably after they come out of the CC you might have enough energy for a mutilate.

#54 Maumaux

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:10 AM

View PostBumstarhymes, on 07 June 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Are you in full Tyrannical gear besides using Bad Juju? I'm sitting on 77.48 mastery gemming Agility. I have full Tyrannical besides using Relix of Xuen as one of my trinkets.

This is how I gemmed:

Blue Sockets: Assassin's Imperial Amethyst
Red Sockets: Delicate Primordial Ruby
Yellow Sockets: Adept Vermillion Onyx
Prismatic Sockets: Delicate Primordial Ruby
Meta Socket: Fleet Primal Diamond / Tyrannical Primal Diamond
I use the shado - pan ring also for more mastery and the shado - pan trinket

#55 Tibzdtf

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:12 AM

A guide on how to play Mutilate? I have seen it all!

and oh yeah:

[6:37:57 PM] Zigen: [7/06/2013 2:41:41 PM] Zigen: lol wouldnt bother talking shit on tibz on AJ. he has more glads than you do/ higher ratings lol
[7/06/2013 9:05:21 PM] Acer.Mvp!: troll
[7/06/2013 9:05:29 PM] Acer.Mvp!: :P
[7/06/2013 10:20:44 PM] Zigen: :P
[7/06/2013 10:21:09 PM] Acer.Mvp!: i have about
[7/06/2013 10:21:18 PM] Acer.Mvp!: 9 gladiator titles
[7/06/2013 10:21:21 PM] Acer.Mvp!: mofo
[7/06/2013 10:21:22 PM] Acer.Mvp!: haha
[7/06/2013 10:21:34 PM] Zigen: he has around 20
[7/06/2013 10:21:35 PM] Zigen: rofl
[7/06/2013 10:21:36 PM] Zigen: plus r1's
[7/06/2013 10:21:39 PM] Acer.Mvp!: he can suck my nuts
[7/06/2013 10:21:44 PM] Zigen: he's the guy I play with :P
[7/06/2013 10:21:52 PM] Acer.Mvp!: right now?
[7/06/2013 10:21:54 PM] Acer.Mvp!: on jaredleto?
[7/06/2013 10:21:56 PM] Acer.Mvp!: :P
[7/06/2013 10:22:23 PM] Zigen: yeee


Quit fan boying me
"\_( シ)_/"Posted Image"\_( シ)_/"

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#56 Maumaux

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:16 AM

View Postceldo, on 07 June 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

have you tried using first setbonus from t15 set and lose 30 energy+1k pvp power?
wondering if its worth it

The Rogue Item - Rogue T15 2P Bonus does apply to all finishers with a duration, including Slice and Dice, Kidney Shot, Recuperate, Envenom, and Rupture. In build 16446, the Kidney Shot increase was broken, but is fixed for the next build.
As Sin rogue you need all the energy you can get, so the 2 set is bad but maybe 4 set is ok. You losing almost all your pvp power so 40 percent less energy on attacks probable aint worth it. Pvp gear is still BiS for most part.

#57 Acoustics

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:45 AM

What's the verdict on Relic of Xuen as a human rogue? Currently using Shado-pan + proc pvp (I have Engi gloves), but was considering picking up Xuen if I can't get a better pve trinket.

#58 zajklon

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:50 PM

mut is worse than s11 vial rogues :/ disgusting opener damage

#59 Maumaux

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostAcoustics, on 08 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

What's the verdict on Relic of Xuen as a human rogue? Currently using Shado-pan + proc pvp (I have Engi gloves), but was considering picking up Xuen if I can't get a better pve trinket.
Good passive damage and decent proc, but the ICD is horrible ive heard and takes for every to proc so not sure. The current PVE trinks give you 40 sec agi proc while that one is 20 sec then have to wait like 2 minutes for it to proc again.

#60 Galaleo

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:03 PM

View PostTibzdtf, on 08 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

A guide on how to play Mutilate? I have seen it all!

and oh yeah:

[6:37:57 PM] Zigen: [7/06/2013 2:41:41 PM] Zigen: lol wouldnt bother talking shit on tibz on AJ. he has more glads than you do/ higher ratings lol
[7/06/2013 9:05:21 PM] Acer.Mvp!: troll
[7/06/2013 9:05:29 PM] Acer.Mvp!: :P
[7/06/2013 10:20:44 PM] Zigen: :P
[7/06/2013 10:21:09 PM] Acer.Mvp!: i have about
[7/06/2013 10:21:18 PM] Acer.Mvp!: 9 gladiator titles
[7/06/2013 10:21:21 PM] Acer.Mvp!: mofo
[7/06/2013 10:21:22 PM] Acer.Mvp!: haha
[7/06/2013 10:21:34 PM] Zigen: he has around 20
[7/06/2013 10:21:35 PM] Zigen: rofl
[7/06/2013 10:21:36 PM] Zigen: plus r1's
[7/06/2013 10:21:39 PM] Acer.Mvp!: he can suck my nuts
[7/06/2013 10:21:44 PM] Zigen: he's the guy I play with :P
[7/06/2013 10:21:52 PM] Acer.Mvp!: right now?
[7/06/2013 10:21:54 PM] Acer.Mvp!: on jaredleto?
[7/06/2013 10:21:56 PM] Acer.Mvp!: :P
[7/06/2013 10:22:23 PM] Zigen: yeee


Quit fan boying me

Easily most awkward thing ive read in a while. You should be embarrassed of yourself to be honest. Also, the girls in your sig, lol? If your troll is to make people think you are the largest turbo nerd on the planet then you have succeeded my friend.





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