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Patch 5.3 maximize dps?


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#1 Cigard

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:47 AM

Hi,

How do you maximize your damage on the several situations in Patch5.3?
I'd like to hear you great warrior's opinions,
Currently I'm doing like this,

- NoBuff,NoDebuff,CS is on Cooldown
No rage: repeat MS->OP,
60more rage: slam for ragedump,HS instead of hamstring(if you have glyph)

- CS is UP
No Rage: Wait for MS cooldown,then CS->MS->OP
40more Rage: CS->MS->OP immediately

- Trinket or Tailoring Enchant proc'd
CS is UP: Generate at least 40rage,then CS->Spam Slam(during CS debuff is up)
CS is Down: Repeat MS->OP,Pray for Sudden Death proc,

- SWIFTY
1. Generate 80-100rage
2. Go SWIFTY
3. ShockWave
4. CS+HS
   - Pray for CS crit for Enrage
   - HS for snare if you have Glyph
5. MS
   - Pray for MS crit for Enrage
   - rage used by HS can be regained by using MS after HS
6. Spam Slam during Reck is up
7. Use Battle/Commanding shout for more Slam

Edited by Cigard, 28 May 2013 - 06:50 AM.


#2 Braindance

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:01 AM

I slam every time I am above 40 rage if im in battle stance (never). Otherwise what you said is good

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#3 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

Yo Cigar~   Haven't see you for awhile.

One thing I can suggest is try Charge + CS before you swifty into Shockwave, Shockwave actually does really good damage especially so with cooldown and it costs 0 rage and this way your MS and Slam after Shockwave do not get dodged or parried vs melee/hunter.

If you have a lot of rage already, u can start with CS instead of Charge + CS.  But I like Charge + CS because again so your CS doesn't get dodged or parried vs melee/hunter, also for the extra 35+ rage you get from charge (bull rush glyph).

Even if you were in D-stance with 0 rage, you can do something like Charge + CS (35 rage), CS crit (10 rage), MS crit (20 rage) and start with 65 rage (if you get lucky with crit) for your burst.

You can also macro your swifty with B-Stance so you have more rage to burst if you are confident about your timing with CD.  I usually manually change into B-Stance as I need it so I don't get caught by the enemy counter as I pop Reck.  You can still do good burst in D-Stance if you have been controlling your rage conservatively and it is way safer this way especially if you were not on Stun DR w/o trinket.

Personally I never slam until I have CS up unless that slam means a kill...  Also, I only slam like once during CS is up because my usual dps cycle goes something like this.

CS -> MS -> 2 OP -> Slam -> MS.  

The last MS hit counts as if CS debuff is still on the target and 2 OP > 1 Slam.  It's the cycle I came up with and it spends least amount of rage for most burst potential.  Yes, you can CS then follow it up with 4 Slam for maximum burst potential but you lose so much rage this way and if none of your Slam crits, this can be the worst DPS cycle you can choose.

With my dps cycle, you can add 2 or maximum 3 HS during the burst. When you pop swifty tho, you can try Slamming more for the one shot attempt.  Slam crit with CS up and during CD is the reason why warrior is still somewhat feared in the arena for our one shot and shit hurts so much :)

#4 Pinka

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:31 PM

Looking at the above. Just feeling the question. How can you guys feel so confortable picking slam over overpower when above 40+ rage. I just feel it is a instant dmg loss if i slam wo cds up. I would ask you to look at this and give your oppinion.

During reck op kind of has a 100% crit chance. Ofc some of the chance is lost but you will atleast know all overpowers will have a full benefit from the skull banner.

Also we are kind of talking ms, 3x op, ms VS ms,3x slam in terms of globals.(In a 6 sec cs time window)
So what will have a higher/ safer dmg potential.
3x op with a 100% crit chance + 50%ish Ms
or 3x slam with 50%ish crit.
Rage cost wise the op burst costs 30 rage + 10 additional rage gained from the extra ms.
Vs the slam burst wich costs 60 rage. That means. The op burst saves 40 rage. Which means giving the rage potential for an extra hs.

So what i have done. I added all abilities to a total weapon damage + ability damage. I calculated crit in by adding 50% of the abilities damage as crit potential (Both weapon damage + added damage.) Resulting in.

3xOp, MS, HS
1112,5% Weapon damage + 6079.5

3xSL,
990% Weapon damage + 12339

(I am no math hero but this is what i calculated)

You will still have a big chance none of the slams will crit. Or get dodged / parried instead of the ops. Resulting in quite a devastating burst loss compared to the overpowers + faster ms. (Which can again refresh enrage/ give more rage if the target survives longer.)

I have been experimenting a bit too. When you save up 4-5 overpower procs before bursting you can back to back spam 3 overpower + ms a few times in a row.

Sorry if my tables lead to confusion.

Edited by Pinka, 28 May 2013 - 07:00 PM.

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#5 Pritchard

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

braindance posted some numbers back in one of the original 5.2 threads for slam vs overpower and if i remember correctly slam always won out.  I use overpower pretty much only as a reset to MS and slam as much as i can and i feel not only is my burst insane but my sustained is very very strong.

#6 Oakenwynd

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:01 PM

What stance are we talkin'?

#7 Moshe

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 04:34 AM

I mostly use slam only for hitting casters (targets that can't parry or dodge) and targets that are stunned during cds and cs, rest of the time I use overpower

#8 Braindance

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:04 AM

View PostMoshe, on 29 May 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

I mostly use slam only for hitting casters (targets that can't parry or dodge) and targets that are stunned during cds and cs, rest of the time I use overpower
This too - I had a fucking dk parry literally 39% of all my hits apart from op in a 10 min game. I almost punched the screen.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#9 Cigard

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:01 AM

Thanks alot for reply guys,

I'll do my dps rotation like this way for a while,
- Normally rotation is CS -> MS -> 2 OP -> Slam(if no TfB buff but have rage) -> MS
- use slam only for hitting casters
- use slam if you are behind the target
- use slam during target is stun'd

#10 Braindance

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:11 AM

View PostCigard, on 29 May 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

Thanks alot for reply guys,

I'll do my dps rotation like this way for a while,
- Normally rotation is CS -> MS -> 2 OP -> Slam(if no TfB buff but have rage) -> MS
- use slam only for hitting casters
- use slam if you are behind the target
- use slam during target is stun'd
And use thunderclap to spread wounds if you know you won't break/stop cc. It hits as much as dk dots.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#11 Cigard

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostBraindance, on 29 May 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

And use thunderclap to spread wounds if you know you won't break/stop cc. It hits as much as dk dots.
omg i didn't know that...i just tested it on traing dummy and
it doesn't break my fear(deep wounds debuff is gone when i apply intimi shout)

spread wounds is very important especially my 3s comp(WLS),
tyvm! :D

#12 Taras

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

Let me fix your calculations a bit. You have the right idea how to calculate total damage, however you didn't do precise enough job. The important thing to remember is that you can average out and calculate critical% as part of weapon damage. So for example, overpower is 105% weapon damage, but has bonus 60% crit, which comes out to 168% (105*1.6) average weapon damage (AWD). Now lets do your burst calculations again.

Assumptions: 100rage start, Crit Meta, 23.23% crit (max with 1 crit/1 pvp trinket), 33% Mastery, 35.82 PVP Power, 65.3% Resilience, CS debuff burst, WoW ability queue used. You can adjust these for different scenarios to suit your needs, check last post for excel sheet.

CS-OPx5-HS-Slam
-CS | 1.5sec gcd | +0 rage, 100 left | 218.09 AWD | 22.16 bonus AWD | applies 50% armor pen & 4% physical vulnerability
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 90 left | 197.63 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 80 left | 197.63 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 70 left | 197.63 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 60 left | 197.63 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 50 left | 197.63 AWD
-HS | 0 --off gcd | -30 rage, 20 left | 137.09 AWD | 3.13 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage,  0 left | 274.17 AWD | 12.52 bonus AWD
Mastery procs: 180.90 AWD

Total 1836.2% Average Weapon Damage during CS debuff. This equals 236,210 damage on average to players. You can replace Slam with Execute if you are in Battle Stance. Alternatively you can skip HS to use Execute after Slam, but Execute won't have the benefit of CS at that point.

CS-OPx2-Slam x3-HS
-CS | 1.5sec gcd | +0 rage, 100 left | 218.09 AWD | 22.16 bonus AWD | applies 50% armor pen & 4% physical vulnerability
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 90 left | 197.63 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 80 left | 197.63 AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, 60 left | 274.17 AWD | 12.52 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, 40 left | 274.17 AWD | 12.52 bonus AWD
-HS | 0 --off gcd | -30 rage, 10 left | 137.09 AWD | 3.13 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, -10 left | 274.17 AWD | 12.52 bonus AWD | 10 rage for this last Slam will come from auto-swing you'll get in those 6 seconds or forced enrage from Berserker Rage.
Mastery procs: 158.29 AWD

Total 1794.1% Average Weapon Damage during CS debuff. This equals 230,790 damage on average to players. You can replace Slam with Execute if you are in Battle Stance. Alternatively you can skip HS to use Execute after Slam, but Execute won't have the benefit of CS at that point.



Now if you take Recklessness and Skull Banner into account the numbers look like this:

CS-OPx5-Slam-HS
-CS | 1.5sec gcd | +0 rage, 100 left | 312.12 AWD | 31.71 bonus AWD | applies 50% armor pen & 4% physical vulnerability
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 90 left | 259.6 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 80 left | 259.6 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 70 left | 259.6 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 60 left | 259.6 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 50 left | 259.6 AWD
-HS | 0 --off gcd | -30 rage, 20 left | 196.19 AWD | 4.48 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage,  0 left | 392.38 AWD | 17.91 bonus AWD
Mastery procs: 279.75 AWD

Total 2532.3% Average Weapon Damage during CS debuff. This equals 325,758 damage on average to players. You can replace Slam with Execute if you are in Battle Stance. Alternatively you can skip HS to use Execute after Slam, but Execute won't have the benefit of CS at that point.

CS-HS-Slam x4
-CS | 1.5sec gcd | +0 rage, 100 left | 312.12 AWD | 22.16 bonus AWD | applies 50% armor pen & 4% physical vulnerability
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 90 left | 259.6 AWD
-OP | 1.0sec gcd | -10 rage, 80 left | 259.6 AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, 60 left | 392.38 AWD | 17.91 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, 40 left | 392.38 AWD | 17.91 bonus AWD
-HS | 0 --off gcd | -30 rage, 10 left | 196.19 AWD | 4.48 bonus AWD
-SM | 1.5sec gcd | -20 rage, -10 left | 392.38 AWD | 17.91 bonus AWD | 10 rage for this last Slam will come from auto-swing you'll get in those 6 seconds or forced enrage from Berserker Rage.
Mastery procs: 244.78 AWD

Total 2539.3% Average Weapon Damage during CS debuff. This equals 326,650 damage on average to players. You can replace Slam with Execute if you are in Battle Stance. Alternatively you can skip HS to use Execute after Slam, but Execute won't have the benefit of CS at that point.





[edited on 06/03/2013] Updated all calculations with exact numbers

Edited by Taras, 03 June 2013 - 06:34 AM.

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#13 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:47 PM

Good work, Taras.  + repped however your calculation is also incorrect because you didn't count the base damage of HS/MS/Slam into your calculation.  Your calculation can be somewhat misleading so I'll say this again for all you fellow warriors out there.
SLAM IS BETTER DURING CD!!!  (As long as it doesn't get dodged or parried)

We've already gone over this in the thread linked below and Braindance did a nice job of giving us the damage calculation in his post.
http://www.arenajunk...wered-to-3-min/

View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

A single slam does more or less the same damage as an ovepower crit. Deeps wounds come for ms. Some back of the envelope math:

5 overpowers in a cs=(105% weap dmg)*5*2=1050% weapon damage IF all ops crit
4 non crit slams in a cs=(220% weap damage+slam base damage)*4=880% weapon damage+5*slam base damage
3 non crit slams 1 crit slam=1100% weapon damage + 7*slam base damage
2 non crit slams 2 crit slam=1320% weapon damage+ 9*slam base damage

Counting banner which is 20% more crit damage op will do 105*2.2=231% weapon damage

While slam does (220%+base damage)*2.2=484+2.2base damage

I think it's obvious why slam is way better during cds


#14 Pinka

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:12 PM

Great work Taras. By calculating the the flat damage in with the slam it seems to be a clear winner. So it will just be the best option to spam slam till the cs runs out.

Now comes the second question. In what order should this be done. Ofc in a pvp situation you have to choose when to pop cds and what to apply first. Dmg is best done during the shockwave.
Hamstring> Reck> Cs> Shockwave> MS> Slam spam.
Or should it be.
Hamstring> Reck> Shockwave> Cs> MS> Slam spam.

I hope you guys know what i mean. I guess you experienced the getting blood feared or scattered or X ability when you do not shockwave early enough. / if it is worth to reck shockwave in the cs window or cs after shockwave is applied.

Edited by Pinka, 29 May 2013 - 10:15 PM.

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#15 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:01 AM

View PostPinka, on 29 May 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Great work Taras. By calculating the the flat damage in with the slam it seems to be a clear winner. So it will just be the best option to spam slam till the cs runs out.

Now comes the second question. In what order should this be done. Ofc in a pvp situation you have to choose when to pop cds and what to apply first. Dmg is best done during the shockwave.
Hamstring> Reck> Cs> Shockwave> MS> Slam spam.
Or should it be.
Hamstring> Reck> Shockwave> Cs> MS> Slam spam.

I hope you guys know what i mean. I guess you experienced the getting blood feared or scattered or X ability when you do not shockwave early enough. / if it is worth to reck shockwave in the cs window or cs after shockwave is applied.

If you can, CS then swifty + Shockwave is a better option for maximum burst.  That is why I recommedned charge + CS vs melee/hunter so your CS doesn't get dodged or parried.  As I said earlier, Shockwave with CD is a good burst with 0 rage cost and it sets you up for MS and Slam following the Shockwave to be a guaranteed hit even against melee/hunter.

However, when you find the chance to shockwave 3+ targets, I'd say shockwave 1st before anything else.

#16 usingg

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:18 AM

To sum up this thread, pressing your buttons harder gives you more damage.
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#17 Taras

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM

View Postirubuwrongtime, on 29 May 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Good work, Taras.  + repped however your calculation is also incorrect because you didn't count the base damage of HS/MS/Slam into your calculation.  Your calculation can be somewhat misleading so I'll say this again for all you fellow warriors out there.
SLAM IS BETTER DURING CD!!!  (As long as it doesn't get dodged or parried)

We've already gone over this in the thread linked below and Braindance did a nice job of giving us the damage calculation in his post.
http://www.arenajunk...wered-to-3-min/

Here are the calculations for additional damage provided by Slam and HS bonus damage.

2742*1.18=3235 average additional Slam damage. You should contrast that with a regular weapon dmg (so 100% weapon dmg) of 30126. So you can say Slam has additional 10.7% AWD.

686*1.18=809 average additional HS damage. So HS has additional 2.6% AWD.

Reck & Banner

(2742*2*48*1.2+2742*52)/100=4584 average additional Slam damage during Reck & Banner. So additional 15.2% AWD.

(686*2*48*1.2+686*52)/100=1147 average additional HS damage during Reck & Banner. So additional 3.8%  AWD.



View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

A single slam does more or less the same damage as an ovepower crit. Deeps wounds come for ms. Some back of the envelope math:

5 overpowers in a cs=(105% weap dmg)*5*2=1050% weapon damage IF all ops crit
4 non crit slams in a cs=(220% weap damage+slam base damage)*4=880% weapon damage+5*slam base damage
3 non crit slams 1 crit slam=1100% weapon damage + 7*slam base damage
2 non crit slams 2 crit slam=1320% weapon damage+ 9*slam base damage

Counting banner which is 20% more crit damage op will do 105*2.2=231% weapon damage

While slam does (220%+base damage)*2.2=484+2.2base damage

I think it's obvious why slam is way better during cds

Skull Banner is calculated incorrectly. It's attack*200%*20%, not attack*220%
He's not taking heroic strike into account, as you can easily augment OP rotation with two HS for up to 540% weapon damage if both crit or 375.4 average weapon damage.

Edited by Taras, 30 May 2013 - 04:35 AM.

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#18 Pritchard

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 01:54 AM

View PostTaras, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Slam might be better with full crit gems and 5% crit buff, but I'll do that calculation when I have the gear. Right now it is not.


I've been gemmed full crit now for awhile, I still think its safe to say overpower is better outside of CD's, while during cd's, if you overpower you are wasting a lot of the reck buff (I have 24% crit unbuffed as a worgen, that puts me at 114% overpower crit with reck up, wasting almost half of the crit from reck), so I choose to slam with Reck up, and as soon as reck/banner falls, finish off my Avatar with overpowers as filler.  I feel like doing this is just putting out crazy pressure and I'm loving it.


Also, I don't use any heroic strikes unless im about to cap, I'm not sure if its right or wrong, but I'm just not a fan of it.

#19 Pinka

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 01:57 AM

Whoop. So i was kind of right? Op does outdamage slam simply because of the rage saved to use extra Hs.
So what does it mean. Slam is only worth as a filler when ms or op are down / to save up overpower procs for a burst window. According to pve sites Icy-veins and Noxxic this is the case.

To the above. What feels more wasted having too much crit to see all your overpowers having a certain way to crit. Which in turn make your skull banner 100% effective. Or slamming during reck just to see no crit pop up.

Also i don't think i have seen anyone mention it. The op / hs spam has more potential to add mastery procs.

Edited by Pinka, 30 May 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#20 Braindance

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostTaras, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

I thought the extra dmg is so negligible that I did not include it in my calculation. But for completeness sake, here's the additional damage provided by Slam:

2742*1.18=3235 average additional damage. You should contrast that with a regular weapon dmg (so 100% weapon dmg) of ~30,000. So you can say Slam has additional ~10% weapon damage.

Reck & Banner

(2742*2*48*1.2+2742*52)/100=4584 average additional damage during Reck & Banner. So additional 15% weapon damage.

So you're looking at another 20% weapon damage regular and another 30% weapon dmg with Reck & Banner. So Slam beats out OP by 10% weapon dmg during CDs, but has A) harder, due to rage, rotation :duckers: can be parried/dodged C) is still not guaranteed crit, while OP is guaranteed crit during CDs.

Slam might be better with full crit gems and 5% crit buff, but I'll do that calculation when I have the gear. Right now it is not.



I don't even know where to begin as to how wrong his post is.
First of all he's either working with different burst window/time frame or simply does not know how CS debuff works. You cannot fit 5 overpowers or 4 slams into one CS debuff.
Second his math is just straight up wrong, as he is calculating Skull Banner incorrectly. It's attack*200%*20%, not attack*220%
Third he's not taking any rage and/or heroic strike into account. You can easily HS 3 times with OP usage adding another 756% weapon dmg. If you're Slamming (especially 3 times or 4 times according to his retarded post) you will not have any rage for HS.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. Just the bolded parts show that you have no touch with reality.

Top pve warriors barely use 10 hs' in 10 minute fights in ToT and you want to use it so often in pvp? Simply rofl.

3 Heroic Strikes adding 756% weapon damage? This is 5.1 with TfB.

Welcome to 5.3.

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View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...




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