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#21 Veev

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

View PostPersephones, on 22 May 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

What's the take on the meta gem? I see you're int/3% crit on armory, but the wowhead link suggests the mastery/minor run speed meta.

What about the new pvp power/pvp resi one?

Wowhead suggests that because it can't calculate the effectiveness of the 3% crit modifier, so yeah, you just have to ignore Wowhead suggestions for meta gems (everything else it's very accurate on though).  I'll do some math later to determine how the int+crit, mastery, and new pvp power/resi one all compare.

#22 Chanimal

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostVeev, on 22 May 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

Also, as far as trinkets go, did some testing and the Shado-Pan trinket appears to give 1151 intellect inside of arena now.  Using my spreadsheet values, that means it gives 1151*0.20808 = 239.5 damage on average to a corruption tick.

The PvP trinket has "free" stat points from PvP power, and has a total of 1515 PvP power.  1515*0.07109 = 107.7 damage on average.

So, ignoring the passive procs for now, the PvE trinket is farrrrrrrrr superior to the PvP one.  They made PvP power such a weak stat now that I'm sure that will be the case for every class (except for healers, maybe?).  Every class is going to want their primary stat on their trinket or they'll be at a pretty big disadvantage.

What do you think of Breath of the Hydra?

With the reduced effect it'll be something like a passive 3,400? int on a 40s duration
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#23 Veev

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostPoobandit, on 22 May 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

What do you think of Breath of the Hydra?

With the reduced effect it'll be something like a passive 3,400? int on a 40s duration

Hmm, yeah I'm not sure, gets more complicated when trying to factor in RealPPM and such.  If you could tell me exactly what the uptime (in %) is and exactly how much int it gives once scaled down, I could at least compare it against Shado-Pan.

I compared the three meta gems in question, here are the *DAMAGE* values for them:

Burning Primal Diamond (crit %)
72.05579775

Fleet Primal Diamond (mastery)
49.1346432

Tyrannical Primal Diamond
47.27219

Note that does not include the resilience on the PvP meta.  How much you value resil is sort of personal preference, but let's say you value resil at a 1:1 ratio to mastery, then it would be worth 135.41883.  So I'd say it's a pretty hands-down victory for the PvP meta, unless you just have no concern for resil at all.

#24 Chanimal

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:45 PM

View PostVeev, on 22 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Hmm, yeah I'm not sure, gets more complicated when trying to factor in RealPPM and such.  If you could tell me exactly what the uptime (in %) is and exactly how much int it gives once scaled down, I could at least compare it against Shado-Pan.

I compared the three meta gems in question, here are the *DAMAGE* values for them:

Burning Primal Diamond (crit %)
72.05579775

Fleet Primal Diamond (mastery)
49.1346432

Tyrannical Primal Diamond
47.27219

Note that does not include the resilience on the PvP meta.  How much you value resil is sort of personal preference, but let's say you value resil at a 1:1 ratio to mastery, then it would be worth 135.41883.  So I'd say it's a pretty hands-down victory for the PvP meta, unless you just have no concern for resil at all.

I'm not too sure about breath of the hydra, but I'm pretty sure it has a 40s duration - with no icd so it can just keep refreshing...?

Have you done any math for relic of yu'lon 2/2? 1030 intellect PASSIVE, 3,262 intellect proc 15s duration.

Not sure how int compares to haste but it could be better than span

Edited by Poobandit, 22 May 2013 - 02:47 PM.

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#25 Persephones

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:55 PM

This is probably old news but I wasn't aware of it - PvE trinkets have had their proc reduced quite heavily in PvP? I just grinded Terrace for the int/haste proc trinket, and that combined with the talisman was meant to give me sick haste, but with both up I've only got 25% haste, up from my base 9%

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#26 snackbacon

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:16 PM

The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 33%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.
    
        Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
        Renataki’s Soul Charm
        Steadfast Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
        Wushoolay’s Final Choice
    
    
    The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 75%, but have a 400% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.
    
        Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire
        Gaze of the Twins
        Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
        Talisman of Bloodlust
    
    
    All other trinkets above ilevel 502 have on-use effects reduced by 50%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

#27 Persephones

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

Well even Essence of Terror from Terrace has it's proc reduced and it's ilvl is 491 with 2/2 upgrades

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#28 Sascatuan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 11:54 PM

View Postsnackbacon, on 22 May 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 33%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

        Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
        Renataki’s Soul Charm
        Steadfast Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
        Wushoolay’s Final Choice


    The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 75%, but have a 400% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

        Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire
        Gaze of the Twins
        Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
        Talisman of Bloodlust


    All other trinkets above ilevel 502 have on-use effects reduced by 50%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

This is what I thought, so when shado pan procs haste it should be4400 if reduced 50%, but I'm still gaining 6k+ not sure of exact number atm.
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#29 Marshmellow

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 11:59 PM

View Postsnackbacon, on 22 May 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 33%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

Fabled Feather of Ji-Kun
Renataki’s Soul Charm
Steadfast Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
Wushoolay’s Final Choice


The following trinkets have on-use effects reduced by 75%, but have a 400% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

Delicate Vial of the Sanguinaire
Gaze of the Twins
Primordius’ Talisman of Rage
Talisman of Bloodlust


All other trinkets above ilevel 502 have on-use effects reduced by 50%, but have a 100% increase to duration when used in a Battleground or Arena.

Yeah I almost shit a brick when my Bad Juju procced for 40 seconds, then I saw it was only 3.5k agi :(
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#30 Nadagast

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:38 AM

View PostSegathor, on 21 May 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

hey nada, which trinket you gonna be using? still volatile?

I'm not really sure yet.  It lasts 20 seconds in arena, but it's only giving half the haste (is this right)?

I've only played a few games, I really need to work out how the valor trinket works now.  If it is half haste for 20 seconds, and it procs really often (unsure about proc rate) I might still use it.  If the proc rate is nerfed I might use Relic of Yu'lon.  Has anyone here used Yu'lon?  Is the proc rate nerfed on it?  Even if the valor trinket has a good proc rate, I might still use Yu'lon.

Edited by Nadagast, 23 May 2013 - 12:39 AM.


#31 Chanimal

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostNadagast, on 23 May 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

I'm not really sure yet.  It lasts 20 seconds in arena, but it's only giving half the haste (is this right)?

I've only played a few games, I really need to work out how the valor trinket works now.  If it is half haste for 20 seconds, and it procs really often (unsure about proc rate) I might still use it.  If the proc rate is nerfed I might use Relic of Yu'lon.  Has anyone here used Yu'lon?  Is the proc rate nerfed on it?  Even if the valor trinket has a good proc rate, I might still use Yu'lon.

Correct. 6908 haste in arena at 496 divided by 2 - so 3454 haste for 20sec on a 45s icd.

I think upgraded yu'lon or breath of the hydra will be the way to go.
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#32 zajklon

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:41 AM

what about human?
yu lon + hydra or hydra + talisman?

so if i read it correctly 1 int = 3 pvp power in item budget? that would mean pvp trinkets are only worth +-500 int as a passive stat making them really terrible?

i don't know about playing with 2 proc trinkets we already have low burst as it is ..

#33 Veev

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostPoobandit, on 23 May 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Correct. 6908 haste in arena at 496 divided by 2 - so 3454 haste for 20sec on a 45s icd.

I think upgraded yu'lon or breath of the hydra will be the way to go.

Just doing some quick and ugly math...

Relic of Yu'lon = 1029 + 15/50*3261 = 2007.3 int on average, which = 418 increased damage on average

Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault = 1151 int + 20/50*3454 haste = 1151 int + 1381.6 haste on average, which = 324 increased damage on average (if you assume haste is worth 1 crit, if you assume haste is worth 1 mastery then its value would be 397)

So it does seem like Relic is probably better.  I still want to get my hands on Unerring Vision of Lei Shen, or maybe Breath of the Hydra depending on how the proc works.  If anyone out there has Breath and can confirm how it works in arena (stat amount and duration), that'd be awesome.

#34 Persephones

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

Now when we're talking about pve items and stuff, I've been thinking a little, and it seems almost every pve item that has an additional socket is better than their pvp counter part, just because of how strong mastery is?

Take http://www.wowhead.com/item=95719 as an example and it doesn't even have an extra socket

You'll be losing 488 pvp power, but gain like ~500 mastery? That's even with reforge taken into consideration

Someone please tell me I'm wrong :/ The nerf to pvp power and the removal of pvp resi on gear seems like a huge issue if you're interested in minmaxing damage potential

Edited by Persephones, 23 May 2013 - 02:18 PM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#35 Veev

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostPersephones, on 23 May 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Now when we're talking about pve items and stuff, I've been thinking a little, and it seems almost every pve item that has an additional socket is better than their pvp counter part, just because of how strong mastery is?

Take http://www.wowhead.com/item=95719 as an example and it doesn't even have an extra socket

You'll be losing 488 pvp power, but gain like ~600 mastery? That's even with reforge taken into consideration

Someone please tell me I'm wrong :/ The nerf to pvp power and the removal of pvp resi on gear seems like a huge issue if you're interested in minmaxing damage potential

You might be right.  Still need to account for item being scaled down to 496 and set bonuses (don't want to give up 4 pc PvP), and reforging as you mentioned.

Wowhead ditched their PTR site but still hasn't updated the live version to account for PvP items not having resil, but even w/ the old numbers you can still see that some PvE versions will be better: link.

Blizzard essentially fucked up by making PvP power such a terrible stat.  They should have increased baseline resil instead of doing that, since I'm sure that many PvE items are now much better (especially anything w/ an extra socket).

#36 Persephones

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:34 PM

Looked through the gear from ToT, and it seems like there are 3 pieces which could be very viable to run

Chest - http://www.wowhead.com/item=95719

Ring - http://www.wowhead.com/item=96157

Bracers - http://www.wowhead.c...5708#dropped-by

Edited by Persephones, 23 May 2013 - 02:52 PM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#37 zajklon

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

what about http://www.wowhead.com/item=98150 ?
ah nvm. it needs to have a bigger chunk of mastery to make the difference for the loss of pvp power

Edited by zajklon, 23 May 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#38 Infernion

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostPersephones, on 23 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Looked through the gear from ToT, and it seems like there are 3 pieces which could be very viable to run

Chest - http://www.wowhead.com/item=95719

Ring - http://www.wowhead.com/item=96157

Bracers - http://www.wowhead.c...5708#dropped-by

I don't believe any of those will be better than the PvP part. It seems like Blizzard made the PvP gear have quite good stats compared to PvE gear at the same iLvL, so this wouldn't happen :-)

I think haste might be better, if we can reach certain breakpoints. That way, we'll have faster casts aswell. If we can't reach those breakpoints however, which I guess we can't, then mastery will be the best, and it'll also be the most convenient, as you wouldn't have to reforge that much when you switch to demo/destro.

Does anyone know how the legendary meta gem works in PvP? Maybe it's better to use PvE head, so we can use that one, or will it simply not activate because the gear gets scaled down?

For trinkets, I think relic and lei'shen trinket will be BiS for humans :-)

Edited by Infernion, 23 May 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#39 Marshmellow

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

Do you have to do the long ass quest line to get those new epic cloaks that have sockets?
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#40 Persephones

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostInfernion, on 23 May 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't believe any of those will be better than the PvP part. It seems like Blizzard made the PvP gear have quite good stats compared to PvE gear at the same iLvL, so this wouldn't happen :-)

I think haste might be better, if we can reach certain breakpoints. That way, we'll have faster casts aswell. If we can't reach those breakpoints however, which I guess we can't, then mastery will be the best, and it'll also be the most convenient, as you wouldn't have to reforge that much when you switch to demo/destro.

Does anyone know how the legendary meta gem works in PvP? Maybe it's better to use PvE head, so we can use that one, or will it simply not activate because the gear gets scaled down?

For trinkets, I think relic and lei'shen trinket will be BiS for humans :-)

You wont reach any significant breakpoints and at worst case scenario you'll be trading 1:1 mastery with pvp power, which is still more damage

And yes I'm even taking downscale into consideration

And lei shen trinket has received a heavy nerf to its proc so I doubt it'd be worth it unless you simply want the passive int

Edited by Persephones, 23 May 2013 - 05:15 PM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.




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