Jump to content

Photo

Why new players falter


  • Please log in to reply
61 replies to this topic

#1 Braindance

Braindance
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 3,934
  • Talents: Arms 1/1/1/1/1/2
  • 2v2: 1638
  • 3v3: 2172
  • RBG: 576
  • LocationAtlanta

Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:39 PM

THE TEXT BELLOW DOES NOT BELONG TO ME - IT WAS WRITTEN BY OWPY ALL RIGHTS RESERVED-I AM JUST POSTING IT SINCE HE DOESN'T HAVE ACCESS

Looong looong-time lurker here, I just made this account to say this:

Many of us have been playing Wow for a long time and can't really imagine what wow's like to a new player.
Some irl friends of mine started playing wow recently, and want to get into the pvp scene. There is a HUGE barrier for them to enjoy arena. They just get owned, period. Not just because of gear, not just because of class imbalances. Just because arena is so overwhelming to start out with. It's very discouraging for a new player to enter arena nowadays. Which often leads to them quitting arena all together. Now there are two obvious solutions::

1) Make the game easier. Obviously a choice you wouldn't like, you all would like ways for the experienced player to distinguish themselves from another player.

2) Having a perspective of improving. I don't know if most of you realise this, but it's indirectly YOUR responsability as well. Guides/blogs by top players offer a perspective of improvement aside from igniting interest/enthusiasm, understanding and enjoyment to those that are at the bottom half of the pvp-pyramid.

If every Glad on AJ, would just type out some basic info, some VITAL info for people wanting to learn wow pvp, a certain class etc... and post it. It would actually help those newbies understand and enjoy arena. Which in the long run benefits you as well, since arena participation will increase and more glad spots will be available.

For new players it's actually really hard to get reliable, up to date info about the game they're playing and how they're supposed to play it.

I'll conclude with this:
There are only so many people with the knowledge and AJ-acces, which is still the most prominent pvp-resource. You have been given a medium to discuss things with others that are the best at wow-pvp. It's easy to disregard responsibility and blame Blizz for everything and yeah, eventually Wow will die, arena will die. But every aspiring pvp'er visits AJ sooner or later, and just realise that what they see here, might just affect their future decisions and in turn, affect yours as well...


PS. When discussing among yourselves try to make a clear, elaborate point instead of short sloganesque posts.
  • 1

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...


#2 snackbacon

snackbacon
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Darkspear
  • Cyclone
  • Posts: 538
  • Talents: ./././././.
  • RBG: 2437

Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM

1) Make the game easier.


Stopped reading there. The game has been dumbed down and made so easy. Theres no reason to make it easier.
  • 1

#3

  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Talents: Fire 0/2/2/2/1/2
  • RBG: 2573

Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM

Goooood post!
  • 0

#4 Celaurthor

Celaurthor
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Kil'jaeden
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 714
  • Talents: Windwalker 2/0/0/2/0/2/1
  • 2v2: 766
  • 3v3: 1666
  • RBG: 1793

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:06 PM

Stopped reading there. The game has been dumbed down and made so easy. Theres no reason to make it easier.

Maybe easier was the wrong word for him to use. Simpler or less complicated. As easy as the game is for the every day wow player, for someone stepping into the game for the first time it can be very overwhelming with all the stuff that can be going on at 1 time in an arena. The game is made too complex with the excess of abilities in the game and blizz could do with trimming some of the fat so to speak. Maybe its not a mid expansion change but its def something to look at for the next expansion.
  • 0

#5 Askin

Askin
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Blackrock
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 214
  • Talents: Marksmanship
  • RBG: 2233

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

I have lost sight of what is difficult for a new player in the past 8 years.
From my perspective it's as easy as:
1. Learn every class and know every ability (guides on AJ or play the game)
2. Keybind everything needed (lots of guides for it on AJ)
3. Play the game and get better (nobody can expect to be better than a player who played years or thousands of arena games overnight)

Edited by Askin, 18 May 2013 - 08:18 PM.

  • 0

#6 Braindance

Braindance
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 3,934
  • Talents: Arms 1/1/1/1/1/2
  • 2v2: 1638
  • 3v3: 2172
  • RBG: 576
  • LocationAtlanta

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:23 PM

Stopped reading there. The game has been dumbed down and made so easy. Theres no reason to make it easier.

Directly from owpy
Could you clarify for the ''I stopped reading here''-*guy*that I didn't advocate making the game easier ANYWHERE (on the contrary), I just mentioned the 2 obvious solutions to newbies getting lost. Including the making it easier, (which nobody wants) to strenghten my arguement that a perspective on improvement is necessary.
  • 0

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...


#7 TteSPORTSDoomsen

TteSPORTSDoomsen
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Frostmane
  • Misery
  • Posts: 969
  • Talents: Restoration 1/2/0/0/2/0/.
  • 2v2: 2477
  • 3v3: 3080
  • RBG: 2541
  • LocationTyskland

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:46 PM

I have lost sight of what is difficult for a new player in the past 8 years.
From my perspective it's as easy as:
1. Learn every class and know every ability (guides on AJ or play the game)
2. Keybind everything needed (lots of guides for it on AJ)
3. Play the game and get better (nobody can expect to be better than a player who played years or thousands of arena games overnight)


'Hey man, I'm new to the game and I wanna play Resto Druid in PvP, could you link me a guide of how to play it? I can't find any by myself, thanks in advance'

If someone would ask you that, would you be able to provide him a guide that is on AJ or if tthere even is a single guide anywhere? For AJ I can say, no you wont. We have probably 4-5 Guides here that are some "kind" of up2date. Learning it by yourself, is a lot of effort and really demotivating so that step of learning progress that you are talking about isn't even available.

For myself I can say, that I'm currently working on a Guide for Resto Druids to give my "2cents" to this learning progress and I'm glad to see that Baten, Nolifer and so on already provided those things.

Edited by TteSPORTSDoomsen, 18 May 2013 - 08:53 PM.

  • 5

#8 Eveny

Eveny
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 260
  • Talents: Shadow 1/0/0/1/2/1
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

At this point i am more asking myself is it still worth making guides or giving tips out to newer players?

Imo its not worth jumping into pvp anymore since its simply not fun to get globalled and that might be demoralizing for newer players but sometimes its simply not their fault, its the blizzard devs who apparently don't want to improve pvp at all...

you can say whatever you like that holinka is doing a great job la la la la...
thats why arena participation is dropping right..

no rewards
promoting cheats/bugs/exploits (takes 3months to fix while pve bosses are fixed within the hour)
removing skirmishes
etc..

just my 2cents
  • 0
If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#9 Toitles

Toitles
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Wyrmrest Accord
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 677
  • Talents: Destruction 0/2/2/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1748
  • 3v3: 2115
  • 5v5: 864
  • RBG: 1754

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:57 PM

PvP in the game as it is now is incredibly complex and unforgiving. Even if you think that it's easier to play once you've reached the top--after you've learned all the abilities, how they interact, which ones are important, how the very complex diminishing returns system works, what each class can do, what all the icons for all the important abilities look like, how your class is supposed to play, how you deal damage, how you avoid taking damage, how to position yourself, how to play under pressure, and a million other things--there is still an immense amount of often counter-intuitive information that you have to learn. People who have been PvPing for a long time don't realize it, because we've had the benefits of playing the game for a long time and learning all this information over that time, often as it changes, so we're always keeping up with the curve. New players, and new pvpers, don't have that.

Personally, I hope that the next expansion comes with the promised "stat crunch" thing on top of removing a lot of abilities and simplifying existing and redundant abilities. Furthermore, they should re-add the depth that used to exist for some abilities, and hopefully removing a lot of redundant abilities will enable and force the remaining abilities to be used with finesse and for more purposes. Like how Deathcoil could be used offensively or defensively, but it's cooldown was long enough that you had to put some thought into how you used it. Or when you could use portal for offensive or defensive positioning, but you didn't have a million and one cooldowns waiting to save you if you decided to place it offensively. If you have a hundred different tools, you don't have to be creative, you just have to know which one to use when--but if you have a dozen versatile ones, then you've got some work to do. And I think everyone wailing about how the most recent expansion has destroyed all vestiges of skill in the game would really prefer for it to take work and effort to do the perfect thing.
  • 6

The #1 sign that your thread was unnecessary is if the you can copy+paste the thread title in to google, hit 'I'm feeling lucky', and get your answer


#10 Conviqx

Conviqx
  • Conviq
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 263
  • Talents: Subtlety 1/2/2/0/0/1
  • LocationBelgium

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:06 PM

1) Make the game easier. Obviously a choice you wouldn't like, you all would like ways for the experienced player to distinguish themselves from another player.


stopped reading, if u want an easy game go spam play LoL, it's not worth making stuff like this anymore anyway since this game is a boring and unbalanced beyond repair
  • 0
http://www.twitch.tv/conviq

Dost Thou Even Hoist?

#11 Mirionx

Mirionx
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 1,243
  • Talents: Holy 1/2/2/2/2/0
  • RBG: 2662

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

Stopped reading there. The game has been dumbed down and made so easy. Theres no reason to make it easier.


For you maybe, but for new players there's far to many spells and crap.
  • 0

#12 Hyrmine

Hyrmine
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,172
  • Talents: Arms 2/1/1/1/1/0

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

Weren't they going to implement a MOBA battleground? No problem. Just make a BG like LoL and let every class only use 4 spells, that'll be easy enough for new players.
  • 0

#13 Milchev

Milchev
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Bronzebeard
  • Reckoning / Abrechnung
  • Posts: 62
  • Talents: Assassination 0/2/2/2/0/0
  • RBG: 384
  • LocationLondon, United Kingdom

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

if u want an easy game go spam play LoL


Really? Lol is easy to play in the sense of mashing 4 buttons, yes. Easy to get into?

100+ champs with 4 abilities for most, making it at least 400 abilities/passives.

Now look at WoW, 11 classes with around say 40 abilities per game (no focus macros), making it at around 440 spells in arena that you should know what they do, cooldowns and how to counter if you want to increase your chances of winning most of the games and not losing and getting frustrated.

Relating back to LoL, yeah, easy to play in the sense of you can just mash your buttons and do something, but same goes for WoW. That's why I disagree with your statement.
If you don't have the basic, fundamental LoL skills like SC or WoW (map awareness, positioning, general knowledge of the game, spells and how to counter them), then it's going obviously going to discourage new players because they will lose or die most of the games.

And @Conviq, before calling me another, what was it.. hipster wanna be? You can go and fuck yourself.
  • 0

#14 horyshit

horyshit
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Emeriss
  • Reckoning / Abrechnung
  • Posts: 39
  • Talents: Blood 0/0/0/0/0/2
  • RBG: 2585

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:35 PM

sloganesque


what does this mean
  • 0

#15 Thaz

Thaz
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Area 52
  • Retaliation
  • Posts: 357
  • Talents: Affliction 0/0/1/0/0/1
  • RBG: 2219

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:46 PM

I am hearing both sides of the "game needs to be/already is dumbed down. Honestly it hasn't. Since they took away the cookie cutter pvp specs they have increased the base knowledge of the classes abilities. So instead of having a general idea of what everyone specs you have to learn on the fly in the middle of the game. Terrible fucking design. They say they want this game to be easier on the newbies and it is for the newbie pve'ers. I am starting to open my eyes and realize that arena is beyond saving. We got Holinka and that's awesome, but 2 expansions too late. The only way they will fix pvp is if they separate it from pve and that won't happen. So since that won't happen people will start migrating to what is easier.....pve. They took the main things out of the game that was easiest for new players; Skirmishes and 2v2 bracket. I know there will be some crybaby that will say 2v2 sucks. It sucks because it has been ignored for 7 seasons, because "it is too difficult to balance." 2s was slow pace and a way to try and compete while learning. Skirmishes being removed was the knife in the side for arena. GC says they weren't being used. I NEVER waited more than 2 seconds for a skirmish queue. Ever. So that being said, while GC was at the helm he had no fucking clue about arena and it snowballed. Only hail mary WoW can throw is go back to what was working. 2s being viable, skirmishes, spectator mode for player ran tournaments (not fucking hard ATR has it......) and make pvp gear stronger than pve gear to establish the separation. People might disagree with me but I don't see any other way to attract new players and help with the learning curve.

On a side note can someone explain to me why balancing 2's would unbalance 3's/5's(lol) and not make it more balanced?
  • 1
Posted Image

#16 Braindance

Braindance
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 3,934
  • Talents: Arms 1/1/1/1/1/2
  • 2v2: 1638
  • 3v3: 2172
  • RBG: 576
  • LocationAtlanta

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:47 PM

Just wanted to say, since I can't post either, that this thread is a perfect example of the bile and hate in this 'community'. Out of the posts that are actually in the thread, very few remotely attempt to do more than stroke their own ego, show how cool they are that they "stopped reading here", and generally contribute anything at all.

I created my moonkin guide on AJ because I thought it would help players who were new (I know when I started I never would've gotten passed 1100, which I do remember being stuck at in s8, without AJ guides) and it's so hard to stay motivated when you see the hate that's blasted at people around here. There seem to be too many angry internet lurkers on these forums that drown out the common sense and helpful voices to the point where I don't even want to contribute anymore. There was a time where I couldn't wait to get access so I could be part of great theorycrafting discussions and help new players.

I, for one, will probably give up on my guide on AJ and just maintain my blog, since people don't go there to spew hatred and act full of themselves. Such a sad state to be in, but I'm over the anger on this site.

From Udderly.
  • 13

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...


#17 WildeHilde

WildeHilde
  • Content Editors
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • EU-Aegwynn
  • Blutdurst
  • Posts: 2,045
  • Talents: Combat 1/1/2/1/1/0
  • RBG: 2215
  • LocationSouthern Germany

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:49 PM

  • First of all you can't make a PvP game easier because changing the game changes it for everyone. It would be possible to reduce complexity but the less complexity there is the more uncounterable things are in the game.
  • Secondly the game would greatly benefit if more players started to do pvp, especially arenas. The entry level for arenas however is so high that new players have a hard time learning all the mechanics and abilities. It's one of the most complex games due to the amount of abilities and interactions.
  • WoW is also slower than most other games due to the global cooldown.
  • At this point it's incredibly hard for new players to get into higher ratings. Most of the dominant players are around since WotLK at least.
  • It would be fun to see how far top players would come on a new account without being able to reveal who they are. How long do you think it would take for example Talbadar to reach 2.4k with a new character and not being able to tell who he is? Basically it's you have achievements or you can't find mates.
  • Balance changes are happening. Not everything is done to the extent we would like but the amount of correct decisions is huge.
  • Also according to the people on AJ every season since S2 is the worst season ever until it's over and people start to miss it. Mostly that's the feeling of entitlement. If I can't be as succesful as I would like the game has to be shit.
  • We need more guides for new players and we need game mechanics that allow better players to play with new players without risking their ratings.

  • 3

#18 Askin

Askin
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Blackrock
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 214
  • Talents: Marksmanship
  • RBG: 2233

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

'Hey man, I'm new to the game and I wanna play Resto Druid in PvP, could you link me a guide of how to play it? I can't find any by myself, thanks in advance'

If someone would ask you that, would you be able to provide him a guide that is on AJ or if tthere even is a single guide anywhere? For AJ I can say, no you wont. We have probably 4-5 Guides here that are some "kind" of up2date. Learning it by yourself, is a lot of effort and really demotivating so that step of learning progress that you are talking about isn't even available.

For myself I can say, that I'm currently working on a Guide for Resto Druids to give my "2cents" to this learning progress and I'm glad to see that Baten, Nolifer and so on already provided those things.


I like your engagement, good guides are always nice to have.

I think i'd link him a resto druid stream, because i'm under the impression that in this case a stream is worth more than a thousand words.
  • 0

#19 Thaz

Thaz
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Area 52
  • Retaliation
  • Posts: 357
  • Talents: Affliction 0/0/1/0/0/1
  • RBG: 2219

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:50 PM

Just wanted to say, since I can't post either, that this thread is a perfect example of the bile and hate in this 'community'. Out of the posts that are actually in the thread, very few remotely attempt to do more than stroke their own ego, show how cool they are that they "stopped reading here", and generally contribute anything at all.

I created my moonkin guide on AJ because I thought it would help players who were new (I know when I started I never would've gotten passed 1100, which I do remember being stuck at in s8, without AJ guides) and it's so hard to stay motivated when you see the hate that's blasted at people around here. There seem to be too many angry internet lurkers on these forums that drown out the common sense and helpful voices to the point where I don't even want to contribute anymore. There was a time where I couldn't wait to get access so I could be part of great theorycrafting discussions and help new players.

I, for one, will probably give up on my guide on AJ and just maintain my blog, since people don't go there to spew hatred and act full of themselves. Such a sad state to be in, but I'm over the anger on this site.

From Udderly.


Ask for access. There is no reason someone who has been a member for as long as you shouldn't get it. Don't give up on your guide. The kids who are trolling are just stupid cunts and should be banned but that is another conversation.
  • 4
Posted Image

#20 Clyx

Clyx
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Blackrock
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 11
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/0/2

Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:52 PM

Perhaps it is also because many of the higher rated players are to bigheaded and aloofed. Good examples are those "I stopped here blaa".
I mean thats what this guy thinks. Its his impression of this game and as he is a new player, you cant judge his opinion because you play this game on a completely other level with a different point of view.
Everyone started with as a newbie, at least remember that and dont think about them as fucking idiots or something like that.
(Don't even need to talk about the state of the game...)
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<