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#41 Thaz

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:06 AM

2s needs to give something. Not rank 1 titles but why not glad and and others? So you might have to que dodge not like people still dont do that now....
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#42 flannelsoff

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:19 AM

View PostThaz, on 17 May 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

2s needs to give something. Not rank 1 titles but why not glad and and others? So you might have to que dodge not like people still dont do that now....
K 2s is probably the most pathetic bracket, double dps is horrible and has to play 10x better to beat any team with a healer, and healer dps should just win every game. Not to mention half the teams with healers just hide behind walls and don't try to win.

#43 Hoodzx

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:13 AM

View Postflannelsoff, on 17 May 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

K 2s is probably the most pathetic bracket, double dps is horrible and has to play 10x better to beat any team with a healer, and healer dps should just win every game. Not to mention half the teams with healers just hide behind walls and don't try to win.

yeah but still the most played bracket (not saying that theres the most part of the competition, just the most part of the players)

#44 Korzul

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:26 AM

Merge BG's.

Weekly scripted tourny that costs gold to enter, runs every weekend at a specific time (say 6pm server time on sunday) rewards gold to the top 3 teams (+ vanity title for the week), that picks the top 29 teams (average personal rating wise) that sign to it:
Feeder tourny offering 3 spots into the above (for the top 3 teams ofc) to give slightly lower rated players a chance to enter into it.

Fun exclusive stuff like different coloured elite borders around your unit frame (can't remember where i read this idea but i thought it was pretty neat) for things like duelist/gladiator/r1.

#45 flannelsoff

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:28 AM

View PostHoodzx, on 17 May 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

yeah but still the most played bracket (not saying that theres the most part of the competition, just the most part of the players)
I agree there should be some kind of incentive to playing the bracket, more like a bigger amount of points per win or gold for rating, but there is just too many cheesy things people can do, i.e gateway, shadowpriest/healer

#46 Thaz

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:48 AM

View Postflannelsoff, on 17 May 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

K 2s is probably the most pathetic bracket, double dps is horrible and has to play 10x better to beat any team with a healer, and healer dps should just win every game. Not to mention half the teams with healers just hide behind walls and don't try to win.

2s is broken now and needs to be balanced. When 2s is close to a better balance it is fun. 2s is slower more about cc chains and player finesse. It can be more forgiving to newer players and is a good stepping stone. Devs needs to balance it. I don't care if it is difficult, they chose that job.
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#47 Sabyth

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostThaz, on 17 May 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:


2s is broken now and needs to be balanced. When 2s is close to a better balance it is fun. 2s is slower more about cc chains and player finesse. It can be more forgiving to newer players and is a good stepping stone. Devs needs to balance it. I don't care if it is difficult, they chose that job.
Actually, they chose to not have it as their job.

It's a joke at the moment when it should be the funnest PvP in game. Nothing was better than having that one player you enjoyed playing with and doing some 2s. I think part of the problem is that you NEED a healer for 3s, and there just aren't enough people that enjoy healing in the current environment to get many 3s going.

It wouldn't take much outside of an aura that reduced healing and mana regen to make the bracket much more fun. They can go from there with other tweaks but it wouldn't take anything drastic to get representation like it is in 3s, which isn't anything impressive in the first place and why they gave up on 2s anyways. As it is now you have new 90s facing rank 1 players at 1300 2s and it's a huge turn off to anyone interested in PvP.

It's upsetting because WoW PvP is a lot of fun to play, and if Blizz put effort into it they could easily have taken over the e-sports scene. Instead WoW is considered a complete joke and that's with people comparing it to LoL which has completely taken off largely due to how hard their dev team works.

#48 Aniroxlol

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:47 AM

Worst idea EVER

#49 Pradafiend

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:12 AM

View PostThaz, on 17 May 2013 - 04:06 AM, said:

2s needs to give something

stopped reading there. jesus christ LOL

Edited by Pradafiend, 17 May 2013 - 05:49 PM.


#50 Thaya

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:17 AM

2s is what you could call "entry level arena PvP", at least it was when 2s was still relevant. It's the easiest to play and easiest to set up, making it perfect for newer players to learn the basics and get used to arena gameplay.

The reasons it's "most played" right now are entirely different though. It's because you can cap the last bit of conquest points only and exclusively in RBG after you capped the arena bit - even if you capped the arena bit itself with RBG - making it more effective to cap the arena bit via 2v2 before doing a few RBG games. Something similar can be said about people with high 3v3 ratings, why play 17 to 20 games to cap the arena bit when you can do it in the completely safe 2v2, especially when you're in a rush as you're more effective if you do it before RBGs on that week?

It's a stupid system and its flaws don't gain enough publicity because of how needlessly complicated it is, and because people keep complaining about arena/rbg formulas instead of just settling with Blizzards decision and looking at actual bugs or logical errors.

However, changing 2v2 systems to hide what's irrelevant now is a great idea actually - both losses and ladder. I don't know why don't they attempt a separate Battle Fatigue for 2v2 too, because healer/dps is ridiculous when healers are balanced around 3v3.
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#51 akatyrone

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:05 AM

put all forms of mana burns back in the game, mana burn, viper sting, drain mana, oh wait ferals still have theirs..... oh well, anyways put all mana drains back in 2s and were golden.

#52 Conviqx

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:58 AM

Just give 2s different titles and remove 5s from the game, this thing u suggest about not seeing ratings will do nothing because all the high rated players who play 24/7 have everyone on friends list anyway and will just be humping eachother about rating and mmr
http://www.twitch.tv/conviq

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#53 a1entity

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

By the time they realize that they need major changes how pvp function in this game there will be no more pvper's left here.

#54 Jacquelol

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:21 PM

Just make 1 bg (region) make it easier for new players to start playing pvp, and do something that makes pve'ers interested to start PvP.
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#55 Hyrmine

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:32 PM

It's weird that most ideas to improve participation are about forcing players to queue. Have you ever thought that maybe players don't queue because the game or arena is trash? Not to mention that the only thing that really boosts amount of glad titles is making noobs play. Most just quit and go PvE or go play CoD.

If players couldn't see how much they had to play for the title they would probably just quit queuing arena and see it as a drag.

#56 Thaya

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:46 PM

View PostHyrmine, on 17 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's weird that most ideas to improve participation are about forcing players to queue. Have you ever thought that maybe players don't queue because the game or arena is trash? Not to mention that the only thing that really boosts amount of glad titles is making noobs play. Most just quit and go PvE or go play CoD.

If players couldn't see how much they had to play for the title they would probably just quit queuing arena and see it as a drag.
This entire game is based around effort justification (or effort/reward model), psychological achievement motivation/hooks and social aspects. Absolute majority of players play this game not because the game process itself is fun, but for reasons completely different.

Solutions like these are the only ones that will be truly effective.

Edit: just so nobody misunderstands: I'm saying the fun doesn't come from the game process (most of the time!), not that the fun doesn't exist - it just comes as a result of other processes.

Edited by Thaya, 17 May 2013 - 03:07 PM.

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#57 Hyrmine

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostThaya, on 17 May 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

This entire game is based around effort justification (or effort/reward model), psychological achievement motivation/hooks and social aspects. Absolute majority of players play this game not because the game process itself is fun, but for reasons completely different.

Solutions like these are the only ones that will be truly effective.

Edit: just so nobody misunderstands: I'm saying the fun doesn't come from the game process (most of the time!), not that the fun doesn't exist - it just comes as a result of other processes.
I see what you mean but there is a big difference. What you are talking about are the players that currently only queue for R1. They don't enjoy the game but they get the title because it's an achievement for them, just like you said. They might have a bit of fun but they still do it because of the title, nothing else. Even if they would be enjoying it they would simply stop at a certain rating even though they had fun getting to the spot.

There was a time in WoW where people just queued because they loved arena. People hopped teams just to play, played with random players even if they weren't good, just to play arena. There were plenty of people who left teams even if they were at glad rating and never achieved glad before just because they played the game to play arena, not to achieve anything in it.

I actually went a few times on Reckful's stream the past week, just for a few minutes and every time he looked bored shitless and even the chat was filled with "YOU LOOK SO BORED WTF" and one time he was even on Ragnarok. He obviously only still plays for money.
I have a friend who also 'loves' WoW and thinks arena is the most amazing thing in the world. He is always in elwynn dueling and barely queues arena because he can't find any partners. The only thing that would really boost participation is if Blizzard themselves integrates a teamfinder system in this game. Yes, please don't write an essay about teamfind.com. Only a small amount of people use it compared to what how many should use it. If there was a little button in the PvP menu that would somehow let you search other players on other realms and lets you see their experience and spec it would boost partipication a lot already. One of the big reasons people quit is they can't get teams or the team they get is shit and they get frustrated and rage quit. Please keep in mind that nobody cares about what you (the community) think. Even if you think this function is completely trash, it would still help noobs who just wanna get anyone at all to queue and that allows more people at the top to achieve gladiator.

Edited by Hyrmine, 17 May 2013 - 03:50 PM.


#58 Thaya

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

View PostHyrmine, on 17 May 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:


I might write a long post on this later (not today), but you're looking at all of it in a bubble. Not just in a bubble, but it sounds like you're seeing just one extreme case: R1.

Look at the big picture. It's not just about those who queue for R1 or even Glad, it's also about those who play because of the potential chance of getting "the right team" or getting into "the crew". It's also about those with previous Glad titles who made a "decision" to get Glad this current season and don't want to give up on it just because that would hurt their own ego. Or those who want to prove that "I can do it!", which is also about indulging your own ego. And most commonly, those who just want to look good in the minds of other people (but are in complete denial of it). People also genuinely enjoy the feeling of improvement itself, especially strongly presented in WoW since the game tries really hard to display any progress, it's not necessarily just about Glad title - getting any arbitrary rating can be exciting too, so those stuck at 1700 will love getting 1800, those stuck at 1800 will love getting 1900 (people love round numbers). And there's tons and tons of other reasons or motivations people play for, that are far from about enjoying the actual game process itself, even if they don't acknowledge it or are in denial.

Look at the game as a whole. How many tasks or processes in this game are actually fun on their own, compared to the amount of boring, repetitive and annoying things you do exclusively for the sake of the result? Think leveling, obtaining gold, leveling professions, getting gems/enchants, doing dailies, farming honor, et cetera; it's almost never the process that is fun but the result of it, and the feeling that you did it, that makes up for the majority of the "fun" you get from WoW. This is really hard to explain, but try to imagine any of the tasks I listed above in a complete vacuum, out of context, and ask yourself: would you do it? would you repetitively kill mobs and do trivial tasks (quests) if you didn't gain levels or reputation as a result? would you level any profession if you didn't get stats or gold income sources as a result? would you care about obtaining gold if you didn't need gold to improve your gear?.. Would you play 2v2 if you didn't get conquest points? would you play RBG if you didn't get a higher conquest cap? would you play 3v3 if there was no competition/ladder/titles/rating-prestige in it? are you sure you aren't continuing to play just because you have full, maxed Tyrannical character as you have been aiming to "achieve something" the past few months (especially those of you who keep repeating "this is my last season" every single season)? and so on and so forth, there's so many examples of this I've encountered personally in my playtime (and have personally went through as an addict).

Also, try to understand that I'm not necessarily implying that this is a bad thing. Lots of other games (not only computer ones) are based around the very same principles. Most of the tasks you do in real life can also be described like this. Besides, the social aspect of it, i.e. WoW just being something you do together with other people, is wonderful, and "I play WoW because of the people/guild/raid/etc" is by far the most common answer you will get if you ask "why do you play this game?" (tons and tons of public polls in the past to prove this). It's not as "dark" as the paragraph above sounds, and if there was nothing else but those hooks, most of you wouldn't play - but a lot of you wouldn't play if those hooks were removed, as well.

And what's happening to arena right now is an actual real example of just that. Most people who were interested in the PvP process have achieved and went through every single hook by now. PvP reward system was largely unchanged since Season 1, and it's not nearly as exciting getting Season 13 Gladiator as it was getting Season 2 Gladiator. It's also hardly exciting to try and get involved in a community where people with 5+ titles are relatively common, and the chances of you ever reaching their level of achievement are non-existent. I am using the extreme example of Gladiator, but this same logic can be applied at any other rating range.

This is why redesigning the reward system of PvP is absolutely necessary, and that basically comes down to adding more, new, fresh hooks. Oh and, just to be sure: I'm not trying to say that the PvP process itself can never be fun. It can, definitely (one of the few things in WoW that can). But this game is inherently based around effort/reward and hooks, and so is the PvP system, which is outdated for a very long time by now. And no matter what's done to the game process itself - even if it becomes super mega fun - the system will hinder it, so fixing the system is a higher priority task. (Doesn't this sound familiar to those of you who read my earlier thread about balance not being everything?)

Meh, this ended up being a big post anyways. Feel free to bash, I'm super tired right now so it's likely I was too vague. I'll reply later.
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#59 snugglebunny

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:59 PM

someone should take all the constructive suggestions and compile them into one post or something. Maybe then there could be a poll that could be sent to developers or something. Just an idea since I actually see a lot of good suggestions but have  a hard time keeping track of them between the arguing and stuff

#60 Hyrmine

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostThaya, on 17 May 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:


I don't argue with what you are saying about having to grind to have fun. Pretty much every MMORPG is built around grinding things to have fun but back then many people queued arena, not to grind rating for a title but just for fun. That's why skirmish was so popular back then in tbc and wotlk. People literally queued all the time and so did I. I remember having to wait less than 2 minutes at night to get skirmish queues.
What would you change with the reward system? Every MMORPG rewards gear. It has always been this way. There isn't really anything else than titles, mounts and gear that noobs can't get so what do you think should they change with it?

No matter what it is and even if it is a grand idea, they won't do it. Blizzard just really doesn't bother with PvP enough to change something as big as this. I can't imagine them giving us a big patch that is filled with.. some insane reward like giving players with the gladiator title their own little zone which they can zone into whenever they like where they can also duel. People would love this since it's one more thing that makes them feel like they are in the cool kids club and there's a lot more ideas to make people feel special but I don't see Blizzard randomly implement them.




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