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#21 WildeHilde

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

Well I mean CC can only be so hard to pull off. Scatter->Trap is actually one of the most complex ccs to pull off as you need to stop team mates from eating the trap, have to be in range, aim the trap but it's still not considered an interesting move. In WotLK you could use debuff protection for polymorph but this is a mechanic that is simply gone and the RNG involved made it more of a clunky mechanic.

This is why we usually don't talk about skill. Is precloaking a Psy Fiend Fear a good move?

I would like abilities that are more like SW:D, Grounding Totem and pre-shifting polymorph. Less like Tremor Totem or WotF. What if Tremor Totem gave the whole team a one second immunity to fear, same for WotF and Escape Artist a second immunity to Roots and Snares. Extent that to more abilities like Nimble Brew. I did not like the Aura Mastery change. I would like it to be able to be used during CC except silence/lockout. So a paladin could use Aura Mastery during Cheap Shot to avoid the Garrote following but not after the Garrote landed. Same thing with Cloak. The immunity should be shorter, the damage reduction should stay the same.

But these are too big changes for mid expansion. Still overall the game is better designed than in WotLK. 5.3 balancing actually looks really good and is overall better than S7. Still think rogues will be too weak but maybe I'm just biased.

#22 Deadscumlord

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 13 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Well I mean CC can only be so hard to pull off. Scatter->Trap is actually one of the most complex ccs to pull off as you need to stop team mates from eating the trap, have to be in range, aim the trap but it's still not considered an interesting move. In WotLK you could use debuff protection for polymorph but this is a mechanic that is simply gone and the RNG involved made it more of a clunky mechanic.

This is why we usually don't talk about skill. Is precloaking a Psy Fiend Fear a good move?

I would like abilities that are more like SW:D, Grounding Totem and pre-shifting polymorph. Less like Tremor Totem or WotF. What if Tremor Totem gave the whole team a one second immunity to fear, same for WotF and Escape Artist a second immunity to Roots and Snares. Extent that to more abilities like Nimble Brew. I did not like the Aura Mastery change. I would like it to be able to be used during CC except silence/lockout. So a paladin could use Aura Mastery during Cheap Shot to avoid the Garrote following but not after the Garrote landed. Same thing with Cloak. The immunity should be shorter, the damage reduction should stay the same.

But these are too big changes for mid expansion. Still overall the game is better designed than in WotLK. 5.3 balancing actually looks really good and is overall better than S7. Still think rogues will be too weak but maybe I'm just biased.

I agree for a mid expansion overhaul these changes are to large, but it's never to early to start pointing the community in the direction in which we hope to see the game in the future.  Starting discussions early gives us more time to perfect and refine the changes that the public as a whole would like to see.

This isn't a post to just bash classes or call for nerfs, i have personally done that to often and am now trying to steer the discussion into a positive light, where all people can voice real problems and not just complain about the game being unfair.  

Seeing someone like you here in this forum, a true Arena Junkie, having a real discussion is what the public wants and needs to bring this game back to greatness. We need more positive talks and not middle eastern bombings of peoples ideas.

#23 Lieto

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:02 AM

What you are forgetting is that if one class have relatively simple time with this or that skill it usually means that they have lots of other things to care about. So pulling one ability out of the context and claiming it to be low skill cap... Well, neither ability is high skill cap in itself, so the whole topic is a bit meh imo.

Quote

A Low Skill Cap Ability is anything that dramatically reduces the Setup needed or the general skill of a class. IE Subterfuge, Shockwave for DPS Warriors, Deepfreeze for fire Mages, Shouriken toss paired with Deadly Throw.
I just dont see any reason for those claims.
What is so easy mode about shockwave for example? Quite a few times warriors completely missed it even on highest ratings and hitting more than one non-retarded person with it is kind of very skiled based move.
Or is it just something warriors dont need? not really.. at least in my opinion.
Or should every ability require some dancing around the pole before it can be used?

Edited by Lieto, 13 May 2013 - 10:20 AM.

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#24 Deadscumlord

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:22 AM

View PostLieto, on 13 May 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

What you are forgetting is that one class have relatively simple time with this or that skill it usually means that they have lots of other things to care about. So pulling one ability out of the context and claiming it to be low skill cap... Well, neither ability is high skill cap in itself, so the whole topic is a bit meh imo.

What i am saying is that certain abilities have dumbed down classes too much, made it too easy.

I am not here to say abilities these are, but there are people who agree with me. Some abilities have ruined certain classes skill ceiling. Some of these abilities we're put into the game to fix a class due to the current state of the game as a whole. Like instead of toning down an offensive CD they just added more defensive CDs to help healers or weak dps, which in turn made them OP so they added more burst, and so on and so forth. They keep adding instead of subtracting.

This is for all classes, not one in-particular. The best example i can give, AND I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE OVERPOWERED OR BROKEN IN ANYWAY THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, I AM NOT REFERRING TO YOUR CLASS AS LOW SKILL CAP, is Restoration Shamans. How many defensive CDs did they have in wrath compared to now? They had NS maybe one more + a Battlemasters trinket. Now they have upwards of 6. NS, Spirit Link Totem, Nature's Guardian, Battle Masters Trinket, Astral Shift, Stone Bulwark Totem. And i know all of these can't be used at once, but my point should be made. They just keep stacking CDs upon CDs for every class.

Yes all classes have had more spells added, and with more spells comes more broken spells. More niche abilities are needed and not these broad supposed problem solving abilities.

#25 Lieto

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:29 AM

This is plain wrong logic.
Adding more abilities making game HARDER, not easier.
Sure shaman got more tools to survive but 2 dps in the opposing team got more tools to kill him — stampede, shadow blades, frost bomb etc.

I am struggling to find comfortable binds every expansion (especially if new ability needs to be on /focus /arena1-3 / party1-3) and some people having hard time even learning all the new stuff that gets added to the game and you are saying it dumbed down classes?
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#26 Deadscumlord

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:00 AM

View PostLieto, on 13 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

This is plain wrong logic.
Adding more abilities making game HARDER, not easier.
Sure shaman got more tools to survive but 2 dps in the opposing team got more tools to kill him — stampede, shadow blades, frost bomb etc.

I am struggling to find comfortable binds every expansion (especially if new ability needs to be on /focus /arena1-3 / party1-3) and some people having hard time even learning all the new stuff that gets added to the game and you are saying it dumbed down classes?

I play with 65+ binds as Mage and i don't use many Arena 1, 2, 3 Macros. I'm not saying every ability is dumbing down classes. I am saying certain abilities dumb down classes. These abilities just lead to more abilities to counter it is what i'm saying. They are just building in the wrong direction. And more abilities also means more utilities which does make things easier some times. IE Bombs + Frozen Orb made Mage damage dramatically easier to pull off.  This burst and bursts like it then had to be countered by more defensive's.

Edited by Christymarie, 13 May 2013 - 11:07 AM.


#27 WildeHilde

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:52 AM

It's an arms race. Counter the counter only now these counters are much distributed. Back in TBC for example comps had a vastly bigger impact on the outcome. It didn't matter that much as most players did not play nearly as good as today but for example phasing a hunter team as priest meant that you had about a minute to win or lost the game for sure due to the mana drain poison.

We add more abilities and either add counters to them or they become too strong. Resto Shaman plus Shadow Priest is a good example of that design. These two specs have had a huge synergy that is too strong because others don't have it. The question is if that is bad design or if similar synergy should be created between more specs. Symbiosis was a step in that direction, too.

And in my opinion that is actually good, build team synergies and expand on them. Imagine rogues would get Smoke Bomb ground aimed, lower cooldown, one second duration to block incoming casts on their team mates or Distract could be useable in fight and have the next ability used within one or two seconds miss. Intervene is for example something I really like design-wise.

#28 Deadscumlord

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:21 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 13 May 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

It's an arms race. Counter the counter only now these counters are much distributed. Back in TBC for example comps had a vastly bigger impact on the outcome. It didn't matter that much as most players did not play nearly as good as today but for example phasing a hunter team as priest meant that you had about a minute to win or lost the game for sure due to the mana drain poison.

We add more abilities and either add counters to them or they become too strong. Resto Shaman plus Shadow Priest is a good example of that design. These two specs have had a huge synergy that is too strong because others don't have it. The question is if that is bad design or if similar synergy should be created between more specs. Symbiosis was a step in that direction, too.

And in my opinion that is actually good, build team synergies and expand on them. Imagine rogues would get Smoke Bomb ground aimed, lower cooldown, one second duration to block incoming casts on their team mates or Distract could be useable in fight and have the next ability used within one or two seconds miss. Intervene is for example something I really like design-wise.

See this is exactly what i like. More skillfully used abilities, that can be game changing when used perfectly, but don't always have such a huge impact when popped.

#29 Lieto

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

So here we go back to my question — Do you think all abilities should be like that? As it stands now each class have a few.
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#30 Deadscumlord

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostLieto, on 13 May 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

So here we go back to my question — Do you think all abilities should be like that? As it stands now each class have a few.

It's hard to answer though when you say "ALL"... I think more need to be like that, and less HUGE game changing abilities.

Edited by Christymarie, 13 May 2013 - 02:30 PM.


#31 Caterpieqt

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

I think they should just bring back Taste for blood with warriors, then everything would be balanced.

#32 deprivelol

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

instant cc, deathgrip, tremor totem too many

#33 Deadscumlord

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:17 AM

I wish this topic would get more support...  i think it's a good way to explain the decline of the game. Without just calling out OP abilities.

#34 Cyanne

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostLieto, on 13 May 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

This is plain wrong logic.
Adding more abilities making game HARDER, not easier.
Sure shaman got more tools to survive but 2 dps in the opposing team got more tools to kill him — stampede, shadow blades, frost bomb etc.

I am struggling to find comfortable binds every expansion (especially if new ability needs to be on /focus /arena1-3 / party1-3) and some people having hard time even learning all the new stuff that gets added to the game and you are saying it dumbed down classes?


Im sorry but adding more abilities makes the game "bloated" and reduces the decision making. Having a shit ton of abilities does in no way equal to more skill somehow.

Let's take for example vanish and the extra stealth levels it used to give.

Now they added another ability that does exactly the same thing: add extra stealth levels. Is a new rogue more "skilled" now because it has 1 extra bind? Or did they just remove all depth and decision making from vanish?

Or aoe stealth: do you think an extra bind makes up for the entire "dance" at the start of the arena with getting / not getting in combat to allow for a sap?

In cata they decided to give my ret a few more binds: inq, zelotry, GotAK. Do you really think that made rets more "skillful"?

If you give any class new shiny buttons for a specific task then it removes the "smart" usage of more general abilities for that specific task.

Let's say rogues get a root breaker or a ranged interrupt would you ever again make a trade of by using vanish as a root breaker or sacrifice your mobility for a shs+kick?  So in the end you get more binds but at what cost?

#35 Deadscumlord

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostCyanne, on 14 May 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Im sorry but adding more abilities makes the game "bloated" and reduces the decision making. Having a shit ton of abilities does in no way equal to more skill somehow.

Let's take for example vanish and the extra stealth levels it used to give.

Now they added another ability that does exactly the same thing: add extra stealth levels. Is a new rogue more "skilled" now because it has 1 extra bind? Or did they just remove all depth and decision making from vanish?

Or aoe stealth: do you think an extra bind makes up for the entire "dance" at the start of the arena with getting / not getting in combat to allow for a sap?

In cata they decided to give my ret a few more binds: inq, zelotry, GotAK. Do you really think that made rets more "skillful"?

If you give any class new shiny buttons for a specific task then it removes the "smart" usage of more general abilities for that specific task.

Let's say rogues get a root breaker or a ranged interrupt would you ever again make a trade of by using vanish as a root breaker or sacrifice your mobility for a shs+kick?  So in the end you get more binds but at what cost?

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