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#261 hid

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 05:46 AM

View Postamaixliu, on 28 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

that would be amazing

It also wouldn't be nearly enough to fix the class. While bandaids like this might be nice for a few weeks/months, I think the class needs WAY more thought out tweaks. Why go back to something we had 4+ years ago? Why not come up with something completely new, make the class actually feel less outdated? There are a lot of things about rogues atm that prevents us from getting big buffs. For example if rogues right now had feral mobility we'd be insanely broken, even with the pitiful damage we do outside of CDs.

I think blizzard just kind of backed themselves into a corner by making casters not have to cast (or move while casting) while at the same time not giving all melees ways to keep 90%+ dps uptime (some have this already, for example ferals, and to a slightly lesser degree ww monks.) Shadowpriests are an exception to this and is IMO fairly well designed (they also have their problems, but it's one of the few casters where positioning actually matters still.) This is a problem blizz has already acknowledged and they will probably work towards fixing this in the next expansion, but until then I believe a fairly big rework of the rogue class is needed.

List of fairly easy tweaks to make that in no way would make the class broken (assuming the evisc tweak is implemented properly):

1) Remove or make smoke bomb way less powerful (maybe just make it a defensive cd, where only heals and defensive spells (bop/ironbark/PS etc) can be targeted into it but not damaging spells. Up the DR to 40%ish) to start with.
2) Balance eviscerate around a higher crit chance (like ferocious bite, but with some rogue-ish mechanic) so that 2 crit evisc in a row doesn't almost instagib people.
2.1) but in return for the evisc tweak above; HEAVILY buff rogue sustained damage in some way, what way doesn't really matter as much.
3) Remove positional requirement on (back)stab/ambush, we aren't ferals that can effortlessly be in the back of people at all times (and hell, ferals still do close to full damage even from the front) - no need at all to keep this relic of a game mechanic in a game that is already so influenced by latency.
4) Remove the need for having rupture up on targets, sang vein on hemo is an easy fix. Will open up more dynamic play in regards to combo points spent on finishers.
5) Remove feint, bake a version of it into recuperate (which we will be able to use with the above fix to sang vein)
6) ShS baseline with 15-18 sec CD, breaks roots. (NOT on prep, we don't need more "readiness mashing in first 10 secs of a game"-stupidity - <rant>speaking of that, why the FUCK is rapid fire/all ccs still on readiness? </rant>)
7) Sprint 30-45 sec cd, doesn't breaks roots but makes you immune to roots and snares for 3-6 sec duration (adds some skill, you can use shs to break roots, but not sprint which you have to preempt - might be a slightly complicated/unintuitive skill, but I think it'd be fine)

I could go on and list a lot of other minor tweaks aswell but these are the big ones IMO. This is obviously only 1 of hundreds of viable ways to fix rogues, but this is how I'd like the class to be at least.

Edited by hid, 28 May 2013 - 05:53 AM.


#262 mimmick

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 07:23 AM

View Posthid, on 28 May 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

It also wouldn't be nearly enough to fix the class. While bandaids like this might be nice for a few weeks/months, I think the class needs WAY more thought out tweaks. Why go back to something we had 4+ years ago? Why not come up with something completely new, make the class actually feel less outdated? There are a lot of things about rogues atm that prevents us from getting big buffs. For example if rogues right now had feral mobility we'd be insanely broken, even with the pitiful damage we do outside of CDs.

I think blizzard just kind of backed themselves into a corner by making casters not have to cast (or move while casting) while at the same time not giving all melees ways to keep 90%+ dps uptime (some have this already, for example ferals, and to a slightly lesser degree ww monks.) Shadowpriests are an exception to this and is IMO fairly well designed (they also have their problems, but it's one of the few casters where positioning actually matters still.) This is a problem blizz has already acknowledged and they will probably work towards fixing this in the next expansion, but until then I believe a fairly big rework of the rogue class is needed.

List of fairly easy tweaks to make that in no way would make the class broken (assuming the evisc tweak is implemented properly):

1) Remove or make smoke bomb way less powerful (maybe just make it a defensive cd, where only heals and defensive spells (bop/ironbark/PS etc) can be targeted into it but not damaging spells. Up the DR to 40%ish) to start with.
2) Balance eviscerate around a higher crit chance (like ferocious bite, but with some rogue-ish mechanic) so that 2 crit evisc in a row doesn't almost instagib people.
2.1) but in return for the evisc tweak above; HEAVILY buff rogue sustained damage in some way, what way doesn't really matter as much.
3) Remove positional requirement on (back)stab/ambush, we aren't ferals that can effortlessly be in the back of people at all times (and hell, ferals still do close to full damage even from the front) - no need at all to keep this relic of a game mechanic in a game that is already so influenced by latency.
4) Remove the need for having rupture up on targets, sang vein on hemo is an easy fix. Will open up more dynamic play in regards to combo points spent on finishers.
5) Remove feint, bake a version of it into recuperate (which we will be able to use with the above fix to sang vein)
6) ShS baseline with 15-18 sec CD, breaks roots. (NOT on prep, we don't need more "readiness mashing in first 10 secs of a game"-stupidity - <rant>speaking of that, why the FUCK is rapid fire/all ccs still on readiness? </rant>)
7) Sprint 30-45 sec cd, doesn't breaks roots but makes you immune to roots and snares for 3-6 sec duration (adds some skill, you can use shs to break roots, but not sprint which you have to preempt - might be a slightly complicated/unintuitive skill, but I think it'd be fine)

I could go on and list a lot of other minor tweaks aswell but these are the big ones IMO. This is obviously only 1 of hundreds of viable ways to fix rogues, but this is how I'd like the class to be at least.
Agree with #3 4 5 and somewhat 6. 7 is basically burst of speed 2.1 buff to backstab and hemo would be nice i hit harder in s11 with backstab and hemo than i do now.

#263 hid

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:31 AM

View Postmimmick, on 28 May 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Agree with #3 4 5 and somewhat 6. 7 is basically burst of speed 2.1 buff to backstab and hemo would be nice i hit harder in s11 with backstab and hemo than i do now.

7 wouldn't be burst of speed, actually it would be kind of the opposite, (doesn't break roots but makes you immune to them, complete opposite), and it's also a way longer CD, and wouldn't fuck over your dmg from energy cost when you use it, which completely defeats the point of the talent (which is also why burst of speed was terrible in 99% of situations.)

The rest of my suggested changes would not work without #2, as I said I think that would make the class really OP. We need to get rid of the ~6-7% chance of a double evisc crit for ~250k total (plus white attacks/poisons), which is basically 300k damage in under 2 seconds. Yes, I know some other classes can do this too (ele shaman for example), but that's no excuse to keep it in the game. I didn't explain #2 well enough I think, basically I want the base damage of evisc to be lowered by a lot, but the crit % increased in some way, by some mechanic, up to 70-100%, basically keeping the avg dmg of an evisc the same, but with this change the new norm would be an evisc critting for about 80-100k with trinket procs up. Having both heavy sustained damage and keeping the random evisc crits for 120-140k would make rogues too good.

I also think that smoke bomb and shroud of concealment has to be changed if the other buffs were to happen, because they limit the amount of buffs we can recieve without becoming OP, basically they force us into a certain playstyle. Also, there's WAY too much emphasis on the opener for rogue teams (because of shroud), yes rogue teams should have strong openers, but they shouldn't be so strong that the class has to be balanced around having a stupidly strong opener (unless you fuck it up), the class needs consistency.

Edited by hid, 28 May 2013 - 08:34 AM.


#264 mimmick

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

View Posthid, on 28 May 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

7 wouldn't be burst of speed, actually it would be kind of the opposite, (doesn't break roots but makes you immune to them, complete opposite), and it's also a way longer CD, and wouldn't fuck over your dmg from energy cost when you use it, which completely defeats the point of the talent (which is also why burst of speed was terrible in 99% of situations.)

The rest of my suggested changes would not work without #2, as I said I think that would make the class really OP. We need to get rid of the ~6-7% chance of a double evisc crit for ~250k total (plus white attacks/poisons), which is basically 300k damage in under 2 seconds. Yes, I know some other classes can do this too (ele shaman for example), but that's no excuse to keep it in the game. I didn't explain #2 well enough I think, basically I want the base damage of evisc to be lowered by a lot, but the crit % increased in some way, by some mechanic, up to 70-100%, basically keeping the avg dmg of an evisc the same, but since now the norm would be an evisc critting, say for about 80-100k with trinket procs up. Having both heavy sustained damage and keeping the random evisc crits for 120-140k would make rogues too good.

I also think that smoke bomb and shroud of concealment has to be changed if the other buffs were to happen, because they limit the amount of buffs we can recieve without becoming OP, basically they force us into a certain playstyle. Also, there's WAY too much emphasis on the opener for rogue teams (because of shroud), yes rogue teams should have strong openers, but they shouldn't be so strong that the class has to be balanced around having a stupidly strong opener (unless you fuck it up), the class needs consistency.
yeah i think burst of speed is a useless talent. But i highly doubt they will ever scrap it. IMO if they made like imp sprint or hit and run in its place would be really good. Yeah i mean you dont hit for double 120k eviss anymore highest ive hit with every proc in the world was 108 and that was with 7k mastery pve trinket. So i think evis damage is fine just literaly never crit so yeah.

#265 hid

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:57 AM

Yeah I guess it might be a separate problem with double pve trinkets, mastery buff in the team, a dancing steel and engi gloves, but you can indeed still hit for over 130k with all that up (just happens rarely, but if you buff sustained this would become more attractive since it would litterally mean you could solo any class if you crit - just trying to think ahead a bit :)

Edited by hid, 28 May 2013 - 08:58 AM.


#266 mimmick

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:18 AM

View Posthid, on 28 May 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Yeah I guess it might be a separate problem with double pve trinkets, mastery buff in the team, a dancing steel and engi gloves, but you can indeed still hit for over 130k with all that up (just happens rarely, but if you buff sustained this would become more attractive since it would litterally mean you could solo any class if you crit - just trying to think ahead a bit :)
At the end of the day doesnt matter 1 bit what any of us think. Hopefully they smoke some good weed when looking at rogues. Because this is legit 5.1 with prep and no rps.

#267 Shrouds

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

I feel like if they increased the cooldown on cheat death from 90 seconds to 2 minutes but in return made you immune to damage for 3 seconds it would actually be very good.
To be fair other classes "cheat deaths" are actually preventing you from dying for a few seconds but ours feels like it does nothing half the time.




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