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Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance


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#201 Elorxo

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostBraindance, on 06 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

at the end of the day why don't you play with burst of speed with is superior to even feral shapeshifting?

you must be joking?

#202 kazuhmeer

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:47 AM

View PostElorxo, on 09 May 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

you must be joking?

i don't think he actually knows what burst of speed does

#203 zkype

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:59 AM

I don't mind these changes, aslong as they change some other retarded stuff in this game, hunters, mages, spriest, dks and so on.

Playing with step is alot funnier tbh.
crazier than a bag of fucking angel dust

#204 Malladon

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:36 PM

View Posthid, on 09 May 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Agree with the sound part, but let's not continue the trend of exaggerating in here. Subterfuge certainly isn't OP, it never was. Subterfuge in combination with C&D is really strong, but also has its drawbacks. It's not "broken", it's just very strong, like a lot of other stuff in this game.

You could argue that subterfuge/C&D is annoying, promotes a bad playstyle, makes the game worse etc - but you really can't argue that it's even in the top10 of OP stuff in the game currently.

I think some of the worst things that have ever been in the game, though not as OP as other things that existed in the same time frame, are what make the game the most un-enjoyable. Long standing instant hunter cc is a great example. and in the past I think prot warriors were another great example in late wrath, after they stopped one shotting people for the point I'm making here.

Having to watch your teammate die, while YOU are not cc'd, or have avoided cc, but have no reliable way to peel the rogue because the restealth made him invisible for his first 3-4 abilities is RIDICULOUSLY frustrating and horribly gamebreaking. I think the suggestion most people are on board with is the "you can keep using stealthed stuff but are now visible" is the best change that keeps the spirit of the talent alive but makes it functional for the current state of the game.

Also, (on mobility) I think that with the C&D change, shadowstep should be usable while rooted & burst of speed should be more of like short duration (5-8 second) sprint (bonus speed of maybe even like 30-40%) & freedom with a ~25 second cooldown (no energy cost)--- that's probably a bit much looking at it again, but its current state is horrid, this talent in theory, or at least the idea of it, could make combat a real spec with other damage changes, similar to how big Improved Sprint was in the past for certain specs (HARP!).

On damage, make find weakness a constant passive 30% ArP--- evisc/mastery may need changing as well but I -THINK- with the inherent damage nerfs for everyone next patch eviscerate will probably be in a good place so long as there's no more 75% ArP in the game. Maybe as a change you could make Master of Sub proc from Dance as well (to appease the PvE world for adding some kind of benefit analogous to what right now is chaining FW as much as possible on a boss).

I think with those changes rogues will be in a good place, Mark for Death will still have it's current role as (imo) basically what Cold Blood used to be for rogues, but it won't be 1-shot city with the RNG gods because of damage changes. Shuriken Toss might need reworking from current patch notes to be a competitor with it (maybe in the middle energy cost of what it is now and what it is on PTR? idk). Cheers


edit--- I feel like I need to justify the FW change a bit more, as much as I think it makes perfect sense;

The current way FW functions is bad for the game, and promotes, as many people have pointed out, the huge spikes/bursts in damage potential brought on by the 1 & 3 minute cooldowns. I guess using (guesstimated) damage potential within a Kidney shot it basically breaks down with full procs and everything and FW, you could overkill someone's health from 100-0 by about 150k with the RNG gods behind you- that said you will almost definitely force a cooldown or some last stand/nature's guardian ability on any dance so long as there's some form of cross CC (a blanket silence from a support dps will do). Without find weakness? Even with every special critting you're looking at probably 40% of someone's health--- imo that's being very generous for a normal kidney shot.

I think by giving a relatively low passive ArP level to rogues you solve this problem entirely- feel free to theory craft why it should be 10/20/30/40% passive, but in principle it makes rogues have the potential to provide consistent pressure and rewards you for being on your target. That said, restealths will always be powerful for sub and this doesn't change that at all, but now it's not a chance for someone to get 2-shot by a Evisc/Mark Combo because a stupid PvE trinket proc'd. Also, now dance can be a defensive tool AS well as offensive depending on the situation and it doesn't mean you're a wet noodle (totally) for the next minute. Another important note is that, defensive dance will not NEARLY be what it is currently after the patch with Ping Pong mode engaged- so rogues won't essentially become a peeling monolith with crazy sustained damage too, which is a really really good thing. Dance should be powerful both sides of the field, but it shouldn't be a "am I going to go for a kill or save the day this time around" choice- it should be more gray, "we could probably get a kill if i dance here, but if my shaman's tapped on cds, may not be able to peel the mage's next swap without a garrote" etc. etc. /insert theorycraft example.

Edited by Malladon, 09 May 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#205 Ayume

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:55 PM

I just wanted to pop in here and say that some of the nerfs were definitely warranted, and rogues were a bit out of line in damage. I know some of you have been defending eviscerate, but I have consistently been getting 135k+ eviscerates since being fully geared.

Many of the rogue changes needed to happen, like Cloak and Dagger and Shuriken Toss. However, I don't think the find weakness nerf needed to happen. That's like nerfing deep wounds because warriors were able to global someone in shockwave. You target the culprit, not the accomplice. What needed to be nerfed was Eviscerate and Subterfuge. What rogues should have got this patch was survivability and a sustained damage buff, while nerfing burst and subterfuge. Instead, we got a mobility nerf, and a sustain nerf.

Currently the design of rogue is to kill a target by globaling them via dance or in the duration of a subterfuge, there is no other game plan or 'pressure', rogues just sit around until they can get a restealth and cheapshot to spam eviscerate and hope for crits. I feel like no one is happy with this except for the mouth breathing 10 year olds who just want to see six digits.

tldr; nerf eviscerate and subterfuge, buff backstab (or) hemo, shadowstep, and the recup glyph.

Edited by Ayume, 09 May 2013 - 11:57 PM.

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#206 Malladon

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:58 PM

damnit ayume, you come in here with that red skulls crap and it's gonna be like my dissertation never happened

#207 mimmick

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostAyume, on 09 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

I just wanted to pop in here and say that some of the nerfs were definitely warranted, and rogues were a bit out of line in damage. I know some of you have been defending eviscerate, but I have consistently been getting 135k+ eviscerates since being fully geared.

Many of the rogue changes needed to happen, like Cloak and Dagger and Shuriken Toss. However, I don't think the find weakness nerf needed to happen. That's like nerfing deep wounds because warriors were able to global someone in shockwave. You target the culprit, not the accomplice. What needed to be nerfed was Eviscerate and Subterfuge. What rogues should have got this patch was survivability and a sustained damage buff, while nerfing burst and subterfuge. Instead, we got a mobility nerf, and a sustain nerf.

Currently the design of rogue is to kill a target by globaling them via dance or in the duration of a subterfuge, there is no other game plan or 'pressure', rogues just sit around until they can get a restealth and cheapshot to spam eviscerate and hope for crits. I feel like no one is happy with this except for the mouth breathing 10 year olds who just want to see six digits.

tldr; nerf eviscerate and subterfuge, buff backstab (or) hemo, shadowstep, and the recup glyph.
Id like recup to heal me for more than it did in s11.

#208 AcerMVP

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:11 AM

View PostAyume, on 09 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

I just wanted to pop in here and say that some of the nerfs were definitely warranted, and rogues were a bit out of line in damage. I know some of you have been defending eviscerate, but I have consistently been getting 135k+ eviscerates since being fully geared.

Many of the rogue changes needed to happen, like Cloak and Dagger and Shuriken Toss. However, I don't think the find weakness nerf needed to happen. That's like nerfing deep wounds because warriors were able to global someone in shockwave. You target the culprit, not the accomplice. What needed to be nerfed was Eviscerate and Subterfuge. What rogues should have got this patch was survivability and a sustained damage buff, while nerfing burst and subterfuge. Instead, we got a mobility nerf, and a sustain nerf.

Currently the design of rogue is to kill a target by globaling them via dance or in the duration of a subterfuge, there is no other game plan or 'pressure', rogues just sit around until they can get a restealth and cheapshot to spam eviscerate and hope for crits. I feel like no one is happy with this except for the mouth breathing 10 year olds who just want to see six digits.

tldr; nerf eviscerate and subterfuge, buff backstab (or) hemo, shadowstep, and the recup glyph.

Good post, I can't stand Sub for this. I rather play assassination any day at this point. I agree with mimmick though, since they nerfed us, I agree on having a recup that heals a lot more. The damage in this game is so obsurd. With a buff to recup, assassination will be way more viable in terms of pressure rather than burst.

#209 mimmick

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:25 AM

View PostOhhiimMvp, on 10 May 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Good post, I can't stand Sub for this. I rather play assassination any day at this point. I agree with mimmick though, since they nerfed us, I agree on having a recup that heals a lot more. The damage in this game is so obsurd. With a buff to recup, assassination will be way more viable in terms of pressure rather than burst.
and Hit & run + shs useable while rooted would make rogues a non retard friendly class.

#210

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:37 AM

View PostOhhiimMvp, on 10 May 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Good post, I can't stand Sub for this. I rather play assassination any day at this point. I agree with mimmick though, since they nerfed us, I agree on having a recup that heals a lot more. The damage in this game is so obsurd. With a buff to recup, assassination will be way more viable in terms of pressure rather than burst.

WHY DO EVERYONE WANT SECOND WIND ABILITIES, WHEN THEY QQ ON IT @OTHER POSTS

SORRY CAPS LOCK, MY KEYBOARD BROKE BY SPAMMING ICE LANCE(NO I RAGED)

#211 AcerMVP

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostZerlog, on 10 May 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

WHY DO EVERYONE WANT SECOND WIND ABILITIES, WHEN THEY QQ ON IT @OTHER POSTS

SORRY CAPS LOCK, MY KEYBOARD BROKE BY SPAMMING ICE LANCE(NO I RAGED)

Because damage in this game is fucking ridiculous? Why do you think healing is ridiculous as well? I would rather have no healers in PVP and give everyone a self heal, but I will never get that.

#212 mimmick

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:15 AM

View PostZerlog, on 10 May 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

WHY DO EVERYONE WANT SECOND WIND ABILITIES, WHEN THEY QQ ON IT @OTHER POSTS

SORRY CAPS LOCK, MY KEYBOARD BROKE BY SPAMMING ICE LANCE(NO I RAGED)
I dont want recup to be a 2nd wind id just for it to heal me for more than when i had 200k less health.

#213 fant0m8

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:38 AM

View PostOhhiimMvp, on 10 May 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Because damage in this game is fucking ridiculous? Why do you think healing is ridiculous as well? I would rather have no healers in PVP and give everyone a self heal, but I will never get that.

GW2 PVP was pretty fucking boring, partly because everyone was either DPS or a tank.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#214 Enyalius

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 09:14 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 10 May 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

GW2 PVP was pretty fucking boring, partly because everyone was either DPS or a tank.

All about the support Guardians!

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#215 akadeys

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 10:15 AM

Some people on AJ man...

#216 Lieto

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:09 PM

Quote

Having to watch your teammate die, while YOU are not cc'd, or have avoided cc, but have no reliable way to peel the rogue because the restealth made him invisible for his first 3-4 abilities is RIDICULOUSLY frustrating and horribly gamebreaking. I think the suggestion most people are on board with is the "you can keep using stealthed stuff but are now visible" is the best change that keeps the spirit of the talent alive but makes it functional for the current state of the game.
And what difference does the bolded part makes? There is no way for me to avoid all the million instant CCs other team has so a lot of the times i am sitting and watching how my team mates die as well.  Its just as incredibly frustrating. Should we change that?

Although i agree that they are nerfing wrong sht about rogues.

Edited by Lieto, 11 May 2013 - 01:14 PM.

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#217 Malladon

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

The bolded part is important because you could be standing right next to your teammate but because the RNG gods didn't let you see the rogue while he was in Subt Stealth, you can't target him long enough to get any type of peel to occur- unless we want to have a discussion about whether or not it's fair that the first few seconds of a vanish opener be relatively unpeelable? Honest question

#218 Lieto

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostMalladon, on 11 May 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

The bolded part is important because you could be standing right next to your teammate but because the RNG gods didn't let you see the rogue while he was in Subt Stealth, you can't target him long enough to get any type of peel to occur- unless we want to have a discussion about whether or not it's fair that the first few seconds of a vanish opener be relatively unpeelable? Honest question

There are gazilion situations on arena when you cant peel because you either just cant or that person is unpeelable.
Dk is unpeelable during ams / lb / ibf for example. Warrior is unpeelable during storm.
Why is it so superduper unfair that rogue is unpeelable for 3 seconds? anyone?

"but.. but..because you cant see him" — well i can see a warrior who is bladestorming, i can see a hunter disengaging me into passive web that i can remove once every 2 minutes while owning faces — does it make me feel better? And unlike other classes that are REALLY unpeelable rogue is actually can be cced by any aoe cc that is in the game (and thats truckton of cc).

Edited by Lieto, 11 May 2013 - 03:54 PM.

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#219 augiddin

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostLieto, on 11 May 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

There are gazilion situations on arena when you cant peel because you either just cant or that person is unpeelable.
Dk is unpeelable during ams / lb / ibf for example. Warrior is unpeelable during storm.
Why is it so superduper unfair that rogue is unpeelable for 3 seconds? anyone?

"but.. but..because you cant see him" — well i can see a warrior who is bladestorming, i can see a hunter disengaging me into passive web that i can remove once every 2 minutes while owning faces — does it make me feel better? And unlike other classes that are REALLY unpeelable rogue is actually can be cced by any aoe cc that is in the game (and thats truckton of cc).
DK is still peelable he is only immune to a few different cc effects, making bladestorm unpeelable was a mistake imo and if it ever gets buffed will get qqed about endlessly. Lets not forget though that while your invis you can lock down 3 different people if you so choose while a warrior can only be doing damage, both mechanics are dumb though and should be removed.

#220 Elorxo

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:40 PM

View PostLieto, on 11 May 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

There are gazilion situations on arena when you cant peel because you either just cant or that person is unpeelable.
Dk is unpeelable during ams / lb / ibf for example. Warrior is unpeelable during storm.
Why is it so superduper unfair that rogue is unpeelable for 3 seconds? anyone?

"but.. but..because you cant see him" — well i can see a warrior who is bladestorming, i can see a hunter disengaging me into passive web that i can remove once every 2 minutes while owning faces — does it make me feel better? And unlike other classes that are REALLY unpeelable rogue is actually can be cced by any aoe cc that is in the game (and thats truckton of cc).

because you are ccing the entire team and potentially doing insane damage (blades up, 5cp eviscs and ambushing) at the same time as being entirely invisible?? don't be stupid you can't compare ams and bladestorm to subterfuge and c&d.

a simple good change would be for the obvious expose weakness nerf, peelable during subterfuge and possibly sustained damage buff although i'm not sure that is really needed due to other changes.

c&d + subterfuge won't be even nearly as strong with the new glyph changes anyway




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