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Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance


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#181 Braindance

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Can we see how it plays out first before asking for a gap closer? And at the end of the day why don't you play with burst of speed with is superior to even feral shapeshifting?

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#182 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:56 AM

View PostBraindance, on 06 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Can we see how it plays out first before asking for a gap closer? And at the end of the day why don't you play with burst of speed with is superior to even feral shapeshifting?
Umm it is definately not superior to ferals and what do you mean see how it plays it already played it out last season.

#183 WildeHilde

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

After thinking about it longer I changed my mind and now agree that Subterfuge should reveal the rogue but let stealth abilities be used. This makes popping rogues out more rewarding even if they spec into Subterfuge and makes peeling them way easier.

The problem is not Eviscerate in itself. It's the amount of modifiers/procs. I think Eviscerate critting for 100-105k is ok and if you look at the numbers above that's what a maximum Eviscerate would hit with 50% Find Weakness (Resilience / PvP Power changes not factored in, yet). Remember rogues have around 30% crit with all procs (except humans with double proc trinket).

Maybe rogues could get a small buff in another area - as the glyphs of Cheap Shot and Garrote got nerfed - why not combine them into one glyph. Would give rogues another slot with more choice than before.

#184 Eveny

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 06 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

After thinking about it longer I changed my mind and now agree that Subterfuge should reveal the rogue but let stealth abilities be used. This makes popping rogues out more rewarding even if they spec into Subterfuge and makes peeling them way easier.


this

probably has been suggested countless of times. but no lets just rape other talents
If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#185 hid

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:46 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 06 May 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

After thinking about it longer I changed my mind and now agree that Subterfuge should reveal the rogue but let stealth abilities be used. This makes popping rogues out more rewarding even if they spec into Subterfuge and makes peeling them way easier.

The problem is not Eviscerate in itself. It's the amount of modifiers/procs. I think Eviscerate critting for 100-105k is ok and if you look at the numbers above that's what a maximum Eviscerate would hit with 50% Find Weakness (Resilience / PvP Power changes not factored in, yet). Remember rogues have around 30% crit with all procs (except humans with double proc trinket).

Maybe rogues could get a small buff in another area - as the glyphs of Cheap Shot and Garrote got nerfed - why not combine them into one glyph. Would give rogues another slot with more choice than before.

You'd have to compensate pretty heavily for that nerf though, if added on top of everything already on the PTR.

#186 Enyalius

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:51 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

2minute cd on vanish lol ,warriors have other things to mitigate damage. IE heroic leap across map intervine to their partner heal them max. Having 2 gap closers as a rogue would be balanced aswell as shs being usable while rooted.

Warriors damage mitigation is trash.

Guess warriors shoulda been rank 1 viable this entire season since we have so much mobility LOL

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#187 Unseenz

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:52 AM

a friend of mine mentioned this to me today and i think its very true. the biggest problem with subterfuge hiding someone isnt just that they cant be peeled easily, its that you dont know which cooldowns theyve used (if theyre opening with blades, dance, on use, etc) and you cant use your defensives in time to peel the damage.

#188 WildeHilde

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:07 AM

View Posthid, on 06 May 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

You'd have to compensate pretty heavily for that nerf though, if added on top of everything already on the PTR.

Yes, but we will start getting buffs again once this issue is resolved. Until then there is zero chance on getting rogue buffs of any kind and It's better to remove this part of the ability that hinders rogue overall balance. Once rogues can be peeled easily during Subterfuge (it's not so hard now actually, as the rogue can be hit be AoE and targeted if close) the overall weakness will show.

We will be in a bad spot at the beginning of 5.3, but that will change pretty fast. Look at warlocks, they had portal and blood fear and that held them back for a long time. We need more controlled mobility and maintain a strong burst. We won't get it until the skill that everyone complains about is gone.

One of the main issues is that Death Grip hard counters rogue bursts. We need something to protect against the double Death Grip. So far that has been Subterfuge,Cloak and most of all C&D. With 2 of 3 options gone either double Grip needs to be removed or we need a cooldown that allows us to stay on the target after we use Shadowstep. Rogues have a small burst window and waiting for 3 seconds is too long.

#189 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:18 AM

View PostEnyalius, on 06 May 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Warriors damage mitigation is trash.

Guess warriors shoulda been rank 1 viable this entire season since we have so much mobility LOL
You will have better mobility than rogues next patch with current nerfs. Warriors mobility and damage right now is fine just die easy.

#190 hid

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:53 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 06 May 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yes, but we will start getting buffs again once this issue is resolved. Until then there is zero chance on getting rogue buffs of any kind and It's better to remove this part of the ability that hinders rogue overall balance. Once rogues can be peeled easily during Subterfuge (it's not so hard now actually, as the rogue can be hit be AoE and targeted if close) the overall weakness will show.

We will be in a bad spot at the beginning of 5.3, but that will change pretty fast. Look at warlocks, they had portal and blood fear and that held them back for a long time. We need more controlled mobility and maintain a strong burst. We won't get it until the skill that everyone complains about is gone.

One of the main issues is that Death Grip hard counters rogue bursts. We need something to protect against the double Death Grip. So far that has been Subterfuge,Cloak and most of all C&D. With 2 of 3 options gone either double Grip needs to be removed or we need a cooldown that allows us to stay on the target after we use Shadowstep. Rogues have a small burst window and waiting for 3 seconds is too long.

I do agree, the only reason I've been saying that I don't want subterfuge/C&D nerfed is because I don't see them putting that much effort into actually giving us a proper fix right now (we got a pretty big overhaul in 5.2, and they don't seem to be in the mood to buff rogues, too much backlash from the community because it's the current in thing to complain about rogues) and I don't really want to spend another full season being useless until they fix it. Although, in the long run it is going to have to happen ofc.

There are countless ways to do it, but I personally like the idea of having a baseline ShS with 2 charges and a 15-18 sec CD to bring it in line with roll/charge (would solve the problem of us getting peeled too easily during the burst window but at a tradeoff of having to save up 2 charges and "wasting" both of them at the same time.) This alone is not enough to fix our mobility (although a great first step), some people have tossed around the idea of hit & run baseline, or shs baseline with hit&run as a talent. I think shs baseline is the cleanest fix because if it's the other way around _everyone_ will take shadowstep as the talent but with hit&run in its place it would be viable to get any of the talents at that tier (could readjust the CD/energy cost of the other talents if need be.)

Edited by hid, 06 May 2013 - 11:54 AM.


#191 WildeHilde

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

Like that idea. CnD wouldn't be too bad actually if Step would be baseline. Step back on Prep would be awesome, too.

#192 Djandawg

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

You should be bitching about assassination being not viable in arena and DKs doing too much damage; like hunter community's endless qq about their offspec MM and mages doing too much dmg , then you wouldn't get nerfed.
Look what happened, you got your best talent ever nerfed, they got away with one pet damage ability nerf (even reverting the scatter + trap nerf lol)

Edited by Djandawg, 06 May 2013 - 12:21 PM.


#193 Galaleo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:31 PM

When my opponents cant be back stabbed I just turn 360 degrees and back stab them.

#194 Tsx

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:32 PM

View Posthid, on 05 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

/facepalm
reality hurts right?

#195 hid

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 06 May 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Like that idea. CnD wouldn't be too bad actually if Step would be baseline. Step back on Prep would be awesome, too.

Step on prep would be amazing as a safety net against those moments when shit just aligns and you end up waddling for 20+ sec, but if they were to go through with a shs baseline change it would probably be over the top to have a mobility talent + 2 charge shs + ability to prep shs. It wouldn't really be OP, but I think it'd lower the skillcap. You should be able to punish a rogue that fucks up and gets kited without him having an extra "out" I think (there's already 2x vanish as "outs".)

If this were to go through they'd probably have to tweak mind numbing to not make rogues too strong vs casters though. (which is a good thing, mind-numbing/necrotic is kind of stupid, albeit needed in the current state of the game, but they should really work towards a way to redesign it.)

Edited by hid, 06 May 2013 - 12:40 PM.


#196 Sweatyfingrs

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostUnseenz, on 06 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

a friend of mine mentioned this to me today and i think its very true. the biggest problem with subterfuge hiding someone isnt just that they cant be peeled easily, its that you dont know which cooldowns theyve used (if theyre opening with blades, dance, on use, etc) and you cant use your defensives in time to peel the damage.

Yeah I can't stand this shit.  Gotta play with the combat log open to see if I'm taking shadow damage from the rogue or not every opener.  It's annoying as fuck and I imagine most healers don't do that and just yolo CDs and pray for the best
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#197 inhume

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:41 AM

did the latest change make it so subterfuge cheapshots no longer work with cloak and dagger?

#198 AcerMVP

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostDjandawg, on 06 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

You should be bitching about assassination being not viable in arena and DKs doing too much damage; like hunter community's endless qq about their offspec MM and mages doing too much dmg , then you wouldn't get nerfed.
Look what happened, you got your best talent ever nerfed, they got away with one pet damage ability nerf (even reverting the scatter + trap nerf lol)

THIS.... Jesus christ, you guys keep bitching about CnD and so on, when this seriously needs to be looked at.

#199 Kaylol

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostSweatyfingrs, on 06 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Yeah I can't stand this shit.  Gotta play with the combat log open to see if I'm taking shadow damage from the rogue or not every opener.  It's annoying as fuck and I imagine most healers don't do that and just yolo CDs and pray for the best
or you could play with game sound and hear the spell. Abilities shouldnt be changed based on if you leave part of the game off. JS, subterfuge is OP as fuck, but not because you cant tell what people are using. Thats your own fault.

#200 hid

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostKaylol, on 08 May 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

or you could play with game sound and hear the spell. Abilities shouldnt be changed based on if you leave part of the game off. JS, subterfuge is OP as fuck, but not because you cant tell what people are using. Thats your own fault.

Agree with the sound part, but let's not continue the trend of exaggerating in here. Subterfuge certainly isn't OP, it never was. Subterfuge in combination with C&D is really strong, but also has its drawbacks. It's not "broken", it's just very strong, like a lot of other stuff in this game.

You could argue that subterfuge/C&D is annoying, promotes a bad playstyle, makes the game worse etc - but you really can't argue that it's even in the top10 of OP stuff in the game currently.




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