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Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance


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#161 augiddin

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostKPul, on 05 May 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:



I am guilty of being one of the rogues asking for this back in 5.1.  What i want to ask, not point out, is what do you guys think rogues status will be in the charts next patch?

Lets look at the ladders right now.. I looked across all 13 battle groups at the top 5 teams.  There are 18 rogues in the top 5 rankings across the US.  Thats 18 rogues spread out amongst 65 teams.   Out of those 18 rogues only 2 of them aren't paired with a hunter or a spriest.   Both hunters and shadowpriests are taking a heavy nerf next patch,  and in my opinion, are the most op classes in the game right now.. which is why rogues control shines.  Now you take away shadowpriests and hunters, rogues are pretty much non-existant in the top 5 on every BG (which is gladiator in every BG pmuch atm).   If rogues were so grossly overpowered and NEEDED such a heavy nerf. Then why wouldn't you see a large influx of Rogue/x/healer atm?  What comps are you gonna see rogues doing well with after the nerfs to not only our damage, but our mobility , AND our control?
I don't really think looking at top 5 teams is a good indicator because literally every top comp ATM is getting nerfed next patch so it's really impossible to predict what is going to be competative, it's also mid season so that data is even more useless then say looking at glad rep.

#162 insanepimpmobile

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:30 PM

Rogues need some kinda of mechanic or way of doing solid dmg to people without having to pop dance or for when u dont have dance. rogues have kill opportunities each game so just saying give rogues more sustained dmg wont suffice, so this is my fix for it.  What if they brought back the old Shs buff when your next stealth attack did more dmg but only applied it to backstab. It could be something like if you are stealthed and shs you get the 70% speed boost to keep up with your target. and if you are out of stealth when u step you get a bonus modifer to your backstab for like 50-70% for like maybe 1-2 backstabs or for like 2-3 seconds. (for all the people out there that dont know how much rogue dmg is, backstab doesn't really hit over 40k crits with zero cd's just keep that in mind) This coupled with a lower shs cd would be intresting. I thought about this just off the top of my head so obviously it needs tweaks but i think this would solved some issues rogue need fixed.

Nerfing Cnd to the ground, lower Shs Cd and have Shs give a dmg modifer for abilites that are used out of stealth/dance.

ps make subterfuge unstealthed but use stealth abilities like a mini shadow dance. it not being allowed to be peeled is kinda dumb.

ps ps Make hunter disengage root 3 second undispellable or 6 second dispellable

Edited by insanepimpmobile, 05 May 2013 - 10:44 PM.


#163 nekatorr

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:10 AM

indeed, the current state of PvP is at a shitstorm.

every patch looks like it has very extreme class "balance" changes. one change creates a future nerf. a future nerf creates a future buff. a vicious cycle to me.

while most of you think the WoW PvP management team is going in the right direction, I think its going backwards.

incremental change is better than radical change in this situation. sub looks like its completely useless now.

#164 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

View PostNadagast, on 05 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm posting mostly because I'm disgusted by the quality of some of the posts by you Rogues (not gonna name names, but Mimmick and Conviq, you know who you are).  Even if you disagree with people, please do it in a reasonable way, and post reasonable points.  Don't tell people to "stfu", complain about made-up situations and generally be biased as fuck.

I disagree with the Rogues that are complaining loudly, but at least when I disagree with Hildegard, I can see his reasoning, his points, and his math (even if it's missing something currently, as his above post is).  I can have a reasonable discussion with Hildegard.  When I disagree with people who make shitty posts, I can't do anything but facepalm.

Have a discussion like adults please.
Ok idk how many times i have to tell you before you will understand that i have acknowledged rogues need nerfs in certain areas but nerfing pretty much everything that makes rogues really good to an almost 5.1 status isnt the answer. You yourself said that you would rather see dumb OP abilities out of the game if thats true how come you dont talk about every other dumb ability. IE ring of piece classes with multiple trinkets?

#165 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:54 AM

View Postwodeta, on 05 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Every class get peeled the same way rogues would be without subterfurge, why rogues should be different?

About the shadowstep : I agree, cooldown should be lowered to around 15~18 secs and on prep.
Lets take a look at other melee warriors charge safeguard heroic leap(3) monks rollx2 flying serpent kick tigers lust (4) ferals shapeshift slows + shs sprint. Rogues shs sprint(2) not counting vanish because of 2min cd. give hit and run make shs useable while rooted   with slightly lower cd and I think that would be pretty balanced oh and make faerie fire have a cd.

#166 Pradafiend

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:00 AM

do the monster mash

ps down with rogues

#167 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:11 AM

Posting for Blazin
1) step isnt on prep, a 24 sec gapcloser in this state of the game is a joke
2) they randomly removed sang vain off of hemo so it actually requires a whole new pvp rotation to get max damage. having rupture and slice up permanently is too much, and it took away rogue's versatillity that they had in previous expansions
3) nerfing find weakness and other mechanics such as C&D is retarded as fuck. evis was hitting too high because of how it scaled with mastery. that has always been the problem, so nerf the PROBLEM. C&D was fine, it is subterfuge making us unpeelable because we are stealthed being the PROBLEM. They should have made subterfuge like a mini dance; making us visible.
they are the changes that are needed, and what made rogues too good, that ontop of oh wait PvE trinkets which have always ruined the actual game. as usual though nobody has a brain in this game and devs consider feedback from washed up players and terribads which touches things that dont need to be touched

#168 Enyalius

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:14 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

give hit and run make shs useable while rooted   with slightly lower cd and I think that would be pretty balanced oh and make faerie fire have a cd.

That would be making rogue op. Hit and Run was strong as balls on the ptr, shs with shorter cd and rootbreak is dumb as balls. Choose one, son! Also, the intervene part, u cant INTERVENE to a target that is up on lets say Blades Edge, if he is standing on top of the thingy and u are down, whilst rogues can teleport to them with ShS. Did like the part about FF have a cd, cause its stupid and op.

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#169 inhume

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:27 AM

the cloak and dagger nerf for shadow dance makes sense if you are trying to balance the talent for all 3 specs. being able to use it during shadow dance gave sub extra mobility over combat and mutilate.

#170 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:27 AM

View PostEnyalius, on 06 May 2013 - 02:14 AM, said:

That would be making rogue op. Hit and Run was strong as balls on the ptr, shs with shorter cd and rootbreak is dumb as balls. Choose one, son! Also, the intervene part, u cant INTERVENE to a target that is up on lets say Blades Edge, if he is standing on top of the thingy and u are down, whilst rogues can teleport to them with ShS. Did like the part about FF have a cd, cause its stupid and op.
I dont think it would make rogues OP having a 40 seconds gap closer and shs is to long of a cd and i didnt say root break i said while rooted big difference.

#171 Theles

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:37 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

2) they randomly removed sang vain off of hemo so it actually requires a whole new pvp rotation to get max damage. having rupture and slice up permanently is too much, and it took away rogue's versatillity that they had in previous expansions

If sang vain still worked off hemo that would actually be more burst than now, since you could use those combos on evi. Not needed imo.

#172 Enyalius

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:40 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

I dont think it would make rogues OP having a 40 seconds gap closer and shs is to long of a cd and i didnt say root break i said while rooted big difference.

Sry bout that, misread it. Still a shorter cd would be dumb if u could still teleport to a friendly target and let em heal u up to max. Yes u can do that with warriors aswell, but warriors doesnt have vanish etc to help em out (just throwing it out there).

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#173 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:48 AM

View PostEnyalius, on 06 May 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Sry bout that, misread it. Still a shorter cd would be dumb if u could still teleport to a friendly target and let em heal u up to max. Yes u can do that with warriors aswell, but warriors doesnt have vanish etc to help em out (just throwing it out there).
2minute cd on vanish lol ,warriors have other things to mitigate damage. IE heroic leap across map intervine to their partner heal them max. Having 2 gap closers as a rogue would be balanced aswell as shs being usable while rooted.

#174 Styfez

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:18 AM

Bliz may have over nerfed rogues a tad, but saying this will be a repeat of 5.1 is just simply absurd. Warriors were better in just about every comp in 5.1 and were extremely overpowered compared to every melee making them feel weak. Also not having prep baseline was another factor of rogues being weak in 5.1. Take your nerfs, see how it pans out, move along.

#175 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostStyfez, on 06 May 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Bliz may have over nerfed rogues a tad, but saying this will be a repeat of 5.1 is just simply absurd. Warriors were better in just about every comp in 5.1 and were extremely overpowered compared to every melee making them feel weak. Also not having prep baseline was another factor of rogues being weak in 5.1. Take your nerfs, see how it pans out, move along.
Will be the same mobility as 5.1 what do you think is going to happen lol.......

#176 Braindance

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:16 AM

Mobility is not a measure of "stickiness", which is what matters to melee. Rogues might have worse mobility than say ferals and warriors, but their "stickiness" is only surpassed by dks.

So, you need no mobility buff. The only possible buff rogues might need in the upcoming patch is to reinstate 70% arp. Even with those changes, from a global perspective, rogues will be a very good melee. Your current partners are nerfed, true, but new will rise (locks/mages). And do not forget that the hunter-sp nerfs touch not only you but many other classes.

So man it up.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#177 Silhin

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:33 AM

View PostNadagast, on 05 May 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm of the opinion that Rogues are pretty grossly overpowered right now.  Let's go through the list of changes:

Cheap shot and garrote glyph nerfs.  Totally warranted, I would actually prefer they remove the glyphs entirely.  Rogues already have ridiculous control while they have access to these two abilities, their durations do not need to be increased over the default.

Find weakness nerf.  Again, I think this is totally reasonable.  70% ArP is so much, it lets rogues basically ignore armor entirely during their burst.  50% is still a ton of armor ignored, and brings it in line with other big ArP effects in PvP (like colossus smash).

Cloak and dagger nerf.  I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I think this one is the most reasonable of all.  For the overall health of your class, and the game, cloak and dagger needs to be removed or rendered useless.  The ability for a rogue to teleport all over the map while dancing/subterfuging and apply instant physical CC to everyone on the enemy team is just ridiculous, along with being very difficult to peel during their burst, because they can close any gap instantly.  I am the most happy about this change.

I think the changes are good changes.  It's possible rogues will be too weak, but I think they should still be a strong class.  Even if you guys end up too weak, I think the changes are good for the long term health of rogues.  Even though warlocks weren't considered super crazy last season, (after demo was nerfed) I advocated for blood fear nerfs, because the ability was just so broken.  I'd rather see the crazy not-fun abilities removed now, even if it means class balance might be screwed up for a little bit.  That's why I'd like to see subterfuge hit in some way as well.  Maybe I'm just optimistic with how fast they can fix balance issues.

So basically u want rogues to go back a whole xpac where we have nothing new at all ?

#178 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:36 AM

View PostBraindance, on 06 May 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Mobility is not a measure of "stickiness", which is what matters to melee. Rogues might have worse mobility than say ferals and warriors, but their "stickiness" is only surpassed by dks.

So, you need no mobility buff. The only possible buff rogues might need in the upcoming patch is to reinstate 70% arp. Even with those changes, from a global perspective, rogues will be a very good melee. Your current partners are nerfed, true, but new will rise (locks/mages). And do not forget that the hunter-sp nerfs touch not only you but many other classes.

So man it up.
Ferals have 100% uptime or have you forgot?? Idk how everybody who thinks having just shs with healers having 8 second dispel is "good moblilty" You are an idiot im sorry no other way to say it. Did they nerf hunters undispelable root that doesnt break on damage? no they didnt ok so than i guess "hunter nerfs" arent effecting rogues. Dks cant be peeled by anything with their 6 trinkets and are almost immortal. Rogues 1# problem in 5.1 was dying in half a second their 2nd problem was mobility.  Quit being stupid

#179 Braindance

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:41 AM

View Postmimmick, on 06 May 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Ferals have 100% uptime or have you forgot?? Idk how everybody who thinks having just shs with healers having 8 second dispel is "good moblilty" You are an idiot im sorry no other way to say it. Did they nerf hunters undispelable root that doesnt break on damage? no they didnt ok so than i guess "hunter nerfs" arent effecting rogues. Dks cant be peeled by anything with their 6 trinkets and are almost immortal. Rogues 1# problem in 5.1 was dying in half a second their 2nd problem was mobility.  Quit being stupid
It is the next patch that will prove my points, as it has been done countless times in the past. Call me stupid now, and I will be here next patch saying "I told you".

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#180 mimmick

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:48 AM

View PostBraindance, on 06 May 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

It is the next patch that will prove my points, as it has been done countless times in the past. Call me stupid now, and I will be here next patch saying you were right rogues need another gap closer, since every other melee has at least 3.





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