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Cloak and Dagger no longer works during Shadow Dance


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#141 WildeHilde

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 05:58 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 05 May 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Are you really trying to say that the Orc Racial is a 33% damage increase?

120k->160k from blood fury? Uh...

Wanted to bring the actual numbers (see spoiler), but I'm on a business trip currently and just typing this during the first coffee in my room. Missed something, maybe someone wants to have a look and correct it.

Spoiler


#142 Nadagast

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:44 AM

I'm posting mostly because I'm disgusted by the quality of some of the posts by you Rogues (not gonna name names, but Mimmick and Conviq, you know who you are).  Even if you disagree with people, please do it in a reasonable way, and post reasonable points.  Don't tell people to "stfu", complain about made-up situations and generally be biased as fuck.

I disagree with the Rogues that are complaining loudly, but at least when I disagree with Hildegard, I can see his reasoning, his points, and his math (even if it's missing something currently, as his above post is).  I can have a reasonable discussion with Hildegard.  When I disagree with people who make shitty posts, I can't do anything but facepalm.

Have a discussion like adults please.

Edited by Nadagast, 05 May 2013 - 07:45 AM.


#143 FleischySucks

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:05 AM

View PostFlabbert, on 03 May 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

It was abit retarded yes. Start dance, cheap shot yourself instantly across the entire map on the 2 dps before you instantly cheapshot yourself towards the healer so the 2 dps are helpless out there for further cc's while your having fun soloing a healer, fun times indeed.

have fun sitting there with a thumb up your ass with 10 energy and no bleeds on your kill target with that strategy while the healer walks out of your cheapshot unharmed

Edited by FleischySucks, 05 May 2013 - 08:06 AM.


#144 Eveny

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:31 AM

I was just watching neilyo who couldn't use half of his abilities cuz he had faerie on him, good game design.

better rape the shit out of cnd blizzard

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If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#145 insanepimpmobile

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:43 AM

remove CnD give Shs a shorter cd and ill be fine with rogue mobility. as for dmg it needs a nerf, to many cds get stacked and the dmg is over the top.


More sustained less glass cannon plz

#146 Dylon187

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

View PostNadagast, on 05 May 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

I'm posting mostly because I'm disgusted by the quality of some of the posts by you Rogues (not gonna name names, but Mimmick and Conviq, you know who you are).  Even if you disagree with people, please do it in a reasonable way, and post reasonable points.  Don't tell people to "stfu", complain about made-up situations and generally be biased as fuck.

I disagree with the Rogues that are complaining loudly, but at least when I disagree with Hildegard, I can see his reasoning, his points, and his math (even if it's missing something currently, as his above post is).  I can have a reasonable discussion with Hildegard.  When I disagree with people who make shitty posts, I can't do anything but facepalm.

Have a discussion like adults please.



Got any feedback on this whole shit storm Nada? ... I was perfectly fine with the range nerf on CnD and the damage nerf on our stuff... I just think this would be a little over the top if they don't compensate us for it.

The cheap shot nerf, garrote nerf, CnD nerf & the find weakness nerf all at once... correct me if I'm wrong, haven't been following it that close lately (some changes may be reverted, not entirely sure) but I'm just sitting here thinkin wtf

#147 WildeHilde

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:35 AM

It's true that we should stop whining and think of ways to play in 5.3.

Maybe Assassination is the way to go with a lot more constant damage, especially with Shuriken Toss, due to Deadly Poison. The Subterfuge/C&D combination still works well for Assa, it's pretty much not nerfed at all in PvP. We lose the utility and burst dance offers but maintain a lot of the core abilities and we hurt less than the other specs when being kited. Flameglow still makes poisons weak against mages but I think there are some options.

Also really need to fix the formula in my last post but don't see the error. Will be back on Wednesday from the business trip and have more time then to figure it out.

#148 hid

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 05 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Wanted to bring the actual numbers (see spoiler), but I'm on a business trip currently and just typing this during the first coffee in my room. Missed something, maybe someone wants to have a look and correct it.

To start off, the crit multiplier is 2.06 (crit metagem doubledips), I also think you forgot to take the 20% sanguinary veins damage into account (it scales multiplicatively with master of subtlety etc, making the damage coeff 132% with MoS/sang, or 145.2% with MoS/sang/PotW.)

These are the things I could think of off the top of my head. I quickly redid your calculations with these numbers in mind, and unless my napkin math fails me, that puts the actual number at 97329 damage after armor/resil is accounted for. This is obviously before any other debuffs on the target are accounted for, like physical vulnerability, expose armor etc.

Edit: This obviously still feels a bit low compared to real world results, but at least it's in the ballpark. I guess blizz might've changed the AP coeff on evisc from 0.8? wowdb lists it at 0.992*AP for example, and wowhead lists it at 0.8, but at the bottom of the tooltip it says "Subtlety: 1.24", and 0.8 * 1.24 is 0.992 so something is going on there.

Edit2: Redoing the same calculations but with a 0.992 AP coeff gives a max evisc crit of 117926.8 (which seems very resonable to me considering that's vs maximum resilience, and with no double dps trinkets.)

Edit3: For "fun", that number drops to 103253.5 after the find weakness nerf on PTR. (Armor going from 12575 (21.4% DR) to 20958 (31.18% DR).)

Edited by hid, 05 May 2013 - 11:17 AM.


#149 WildeHilde

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:54 AM

Well done Hid. Thank you!

Now we need numbers with the orc racial and humans with double proc. Remember this are the maximum crit values possible, means it can only get higher with Tailoring, Physical Vulnerability or Expose Armor / Fearie Fire.

#150 Nadagast

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostDylon187, on 05 May 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Got any feedback on this whole shit storm Nada? ... I was perfectly fine with the range nerf on CnD and the damage nerf on our stuff... I just think this would be a little over the top if they don't compensate us for it.

The cheap shot nerf, garrote nerf, CnD nerf & the find weakness nerf all at once... correct me if I'm wrong, haven't been following it that close lately (some changes may be reverted, not entirely sure) but I'm just sitting here thinkin wtf

I'm of the opinion that Rogues are pretty grossly overpowered right now.  Let's go through the list of changes:

Cheap shot and garrote glyph nerfs.  Totally warranted, I would actually prefer they remove the glyphs entirely.  Rogues already have ridiculous control while they have access to these two abilities, their durations do not need to be increased over the default.

Find weakness nerf.  Again, I think this is totally reasonable.  70% ArP is so much, it lets rogues basically ignore armor entirely during their burst.  50% is still a ton of armor ignored, and brings it in line with other big ArP effects in PvP (like colossus smash).

Cloak and dagger nerf.  I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I think this one is the most reasonable of all.  For the overall health of your class, and the game, cloak and dagger needs to be removed or rendered useless.  The ability for a rogue to teleport all over the map while dancing/subterfuging and apply instant physical CC to everyone on the enemy team is just ridiculous, along with being very difficult to peel during their burst, because they can close any gap instantly.  I am the most happy about this change.

I think the changes are good changes.  It's possible rogues will be too weak, but I think they should still be a strong class.  Even if you guys end up too weak, I think the changes are good for the long term health of rogues.  Even though warlocks weren't considered super crazy last season, (after demo was nerfed) I advocated for blood fear nerfs, because the ability was just so broken.  I'd rather see the crazy not-fun abilities removed now, even if it means class balance might be screwed up for a little bit.  That's why I'd like to see subterfuge hit in some way as well.  Maybe I'm just optimistic with how fast they can fix balance issues.

Edited by Nadagast, 05 May 2013 - 12:23 PM.


#151 hid

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:18 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 05 May 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Well done Hid. Thank you!

Now we need numbers with the orc racial and humans with double proc. Remember this are the maximum crit values possible, means it can only get higher with Tailoring, Physical Vulnerability or Expose Armor / Fearie Fire.

Glad I could help. Nice initiative btw, this forum really needs some hard data and not just anecdotal evidence of "OPness" from random people of other classes who CLEARLY have no idea about rogue mechanics (just see earlier in this thread, it's kind of sad >.<)

Edited by hid, 05 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.


#152 Conviqx

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 05 May 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

It's true that we should stop whining and think of ways to play in 5.3.

Maybe Assassination is the way to go with a lot more constant damage, especially with Shuriken Toss, due to Deadly Poison. The Subterfuge/C&D combination still works well for Assa, it's pretty much not nerfed at all in PvP. We lose the utility and burst dance offers but maintain a lot of the core abilities and we hurt less than the other specs when being kited. Flameglow still makes poisons weak against mages but I think there are some options.

Also really need to fix the formula in my last post but don't see the error. Will be back on Wednesday from the business trip and have more time then to figure it out.

unlike u, there are actually rogues out there who don't want to play the retarded tunnel spec that is assassination, people play rogue pvp mostly for sub because it actually requires a brain

if i wanted to play assa i would be maining a DK for christ sake

rogues aren't grossly overpowered, watching some of u "top" players stream is pretty funny, letting rogues restealth in your faces 24/7 after a fear and whatnot, whining about their CC afterwards and whining about CnD

if you would actually pay attention to the game and not only focus on when your weapon enchant and your trinkets proc so u can swifty someone with mongo dmg, rogues are perfectly fine to deal with

but everyone is just so bad and focused on raping ppl with cd's with barely landing any CC, doesn't matter howmany helmets u have above your heads, it makes me smile how overrated a lot of people are in this game

inb4 post deleted cuz of butthurt
http://www.twitch.tv/conviq

Dost Thou Even Hoist?

#153 Mirionx

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostConviqx, on 05 May 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

rogues are perfectly fine to deal with

I kinda struggle to deal with people that are invisible and while they're killing me with dumb damage that you can't heal..

#154 Evilchronos

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:34 PM

I still think that subterfuge should bring you out of stealth but still give you the stealth abilities for 3 seconds. Rogues openers are un-peelable half of the time and things can die in a cheapshot. CnD gave us too much mobility and ShS wasn't enough, so like Fhoz said lowering the cd on ShS would be the best change.

also make hunter root dispellable please

Edited by Evilchronos, 05 May 2013 - 02:37 PM.


#155 Tsx

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:50 PM

i remember all u rogues saying in 5.1 that if they gave u step and prep ull be happy , and now that ull most likely go for step and prep ur qqing about it.Logic????

#156 WildeHilde

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:57 PM

@Hid: Agree

@Conviq: 95% of all rogues prefer to play sub, but we had long times in rogue history where other specs were played.

@Nadagast: You forget about the nerfs to the comps. Rogues do not fit into every comp in the game and while I understand the hate for the current rogue comps - it's not like RMP or RLS will make a comeback with 5.3. RPS will be weaker overall than in 5.1 and Thugcleave has many minor nerfs combined with buffs to classes like Paladins, Warriors and Locks (Portal not counterable and Thug does not have the time to kill it). While the inidividual skills need adjustment the package has to work. And balance wise I think it's smarter to do nerfs in steps and not nerf many different things without playtesting it extensively. We have seen this several times in the past and it never worked well if too many things were changed at once. Damage was nerfed (Shuriken Toss, PvP Power, Find Weakness), control was nerfed (Glyph of Cheap Shot, Glyph of Garrote), mobility was nerfed (Cloak and Dagger), comps were nerfed (Shadow Priests and BM Hunters).

Regarding Subterfuge
The problem without Subterfuge are too easy peels. Our burst is timed and a lot of things need to be aligned (DRs, procs, TotT, LoS, mobility cooldowns like Blink) because we only have small windows in which we deal damage that isn't easily outhealed. If Double Grip and things like Blazing Speed + Blink are toned down I agree with the change. The problem is that it's actually super easy to counter rogue burst outside of Smoke Bomb / Cloak / Subterfuge. Most people don't seem to know: Shadow Dance cancels the Subterfuge stealth as well as the onUse trinket. Two Eviscerates during Subterfuge only works with Shadowblades & Marked for Death by the way.

Regarding Shadowstep
Strong ability but the cooldown is too long. With Shadowstep on Preparation things were different in S11. We could use a major cooldown to connect again if needed. And unlike now in S11 we had damage with Backstab outside of the burst windows. This is why I think that we need a small buff to rogue mobility. Hit and Run is a solid idea for example. The cooldown would need to be discussed of course.

#157 hid

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 05 May 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

i remember all u rogues saying in 5.1 that if they gave u step and prep ull be happy , and now that ull most likely go for step and prep ur qqing about it.Logic????

/facepalm

#158 wodeta

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 05 May 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:



Regarding Subterfuge
The problem without Subterfuge are too easy peels. Our burst is timed and a lot of things need to be aligned (DRs, procs, TotT, LoS, mobility cooldowns like Blink) because we only have small windows in which we deal damage that isn't easily outhealed. If Double Grip and things like Blazing Speed + Blink are toned down I agree with the change. The problem is that it's actually super easy to counter rogue burst outside of Smoke Bomb / Cloak / Subterfuge. Most people don't seem to know: Shadow Dance cancels the Subterfuge stealth as well as the onUse trinket. Two Eviscerates during Subterfuge only works with Shadowblades & Marked for Death by the way.

Regarding Shadowstep
Strong ability but the cooldown is too long. With Shadowstep on Preparation things were different in S11. We could use a major cooldown to connect again if needed. And unlike now in S11 we had damage with Backstab outside of the burst windows. This is why I think that we need a small buff to rogue mobility. Hit and Run is a solid idea for example. The cooldown would need to be discussed of course.

Every class get peeled the same way rogues would be without subterfurge, why rogues should be different?

About the shadowstep : I agree, cooldown should be lowered to around 15~18 secs and on prep.
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#159 KPul

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 05 May 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

i remember all u rogues saying in 5.1 that if they gave u step and prep ull be happy , and now that ull most likely go for step and prep ur qqing about it.Logic????

I am guilty of being one of the rogues asking for this back in 5.1.  What i want to ask, not point out, is what do you guys think rogues status will be in the charts next patch?

Lets look at the ladders right now.. I looked across all 13 battle groups at the top 5 teams.  There are 18 rogues in the top 5 rankings across the US.  Thats 18 rogues spread out amongst 65 teams.   Out of those 18 rogues only 2 of them aren't paired with a hunter or a spriest.   Both hunters and shadowpriests are taking a heavy nerf next patch,  and in my opinion, are the most op classes in the game right now.. which is why rogues control shines.  Now you take away shadowpriests and hunters, rogues are pretty much non-existant in the top 5 on every BG (which is gladiator in every BG pmuch atm).   If rogues were so grossly overpowered and NEEDED such a heavy nerf. Then why wouldn't you see a large influx of Rogue/x/healer atm?  What comps are you gonna see rogues doing well with after the nerfs to not only our damage, but our mobility , AND our control?
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#160 fant0m8

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostEveny, on 05 May 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

I was just watching neilyo who couldn't use half of his abilities cuz he had faerie on him, good game design.

better rape the shit out of cnd blizzard

You know that those abilities don't have a cooldown for a reason, right? You aren't supposed to be able to use them any time you want.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.




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