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#1 Jayxx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

Since no one really talks about it

We have high damage (Should naturally for any class in the game who's only option is to dps as other pure dps should have higher output naturally) that's linked to a pet currently.

We have instant cc (scatter, pet stun, silence, trap) the longest of which can be countered by collapsing on the target of the AoE. (Cross CC is needed majority of the time, while this comes with any class trying to cc using 2-4 cd's at once isnt' a type of game play I'm aware of with other classes, however does attribute to the uniqueness of the class.)

We have usable utility (Freedom, Crit immunity)

Defensively we have deterrence and our ability to avoid damage,

As marksman we naturally countered mages because high physical dps, that you can't kite. Now most of our damage is tied to pets and it's really not that hard to cc a pet if your conscious of it, we don't have the same up time on a class like a mage but our burst went up considerable with kc/bs. I understand how we're better than let's say ele shamans, boomkins, ret paladins, even warlocks because of all the cleaves in the game. I would just like to know what, how and, why hunter nerfs needed

- With that being said I suggest freezing trap simply be removed from the game we operate off of ice traps and our instants being scatter/silence/pet cc, because let's be honest trap is the clunkiest shit ever and is not a top priority in terms of fixing and has been so for over 3 expansions. Add 1 sec to scatter/silence and remove trap, so we no longer operate off of a clunky AoE cc that isn't based off of the character it's linked to in terms of coding.

This is all just open conversation, I really don't care if you don't like my suggestion it's just a suggestion. Just trying to see what everyone thinks of the situation

- edit tried to fix dumbshit, sorry for contributing to cancer in small ways

Edited by Jayxx, 27 April 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#2 Hiddenstalke

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostJayxx, on 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:



- With that being said I suggest freezing trap simply be removed from the game we operate off of ice traps and our instants being scatter/silence/pet cc, because let's be honest trap is the clunkiest shit ever and is not a top priority in terms of fixing and has been so for over 3 expansions. Add 1 sec to scatter/silence and remove trap, so we no longer operate off of a clunky AoE cc that isn't based off of the character it's linked to in terms of coding.



No - this is unique and this is one of the mechanics that separate good and bad players(for landing/eating traps).
If they make scatter longer and shit that promotes easy gameplay and makes hunters too easy and boring(since it's hard to avoid instant spells).

Reason hunters are OP is because of "iwin"trinket on 1 min cd. They should either make it 2 min cd or remove it from Readiness.It's not only BW though that needs to go - spells with trinket effect should be removed(the lock/DK(x3)/monk  and whoever else have such crap).
They shouldn't be useable inside the CC  - they should be used beforehand(for example you use DK ground crap and you're immune to cc for 10 sec if you stay in but if you get in cc before that you can't just simply use it and be immune again).

Another thing hunters need to be changed is the pet CC - it is somewhat fine on 1 min cd but since BM one is 32 sec it is just too short. Make all pet stuns on +1 min cd or else it is quite OP.

Out of that i believe hunters are fine since damage gets tunned down overall next patch + Rapid fire setbonus change and blink strike change making it less bursty but better sustained.
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#3 Jayxx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostHiddenstalke, on 27 April 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

No - this is unique and this is one of the mechanics that separate good and bad players(for landing/eating traps).
If they make scatter longer and shit that promotes easy gameplay and makes hunters too easy and boring(since it's hard to avoid instant spells).

Reason hunters are OP is because of "iwin"trinket on 1 min cd. They should either make it 2 min cd or remove it from Readiness.It's not only BW though that needs to go - spells with trinket effect should be removed(the lock/DK(x3)/monk  and whoever else have such crap).
They shouldn't be useable inside the CC  - they should be used beforehand(for example you use DK ground crap and you're immune to cc for 10 sec if you stay in but if you get in cc before that you can't just simply use it and be immune again).

Another thing hunters need to be changed is the pet CC - it is somewhat fine on 1 min cd but since BM one is 32 sec it is just too short. Make all pet stuns on +1 min cd or else it is quite OP.

Out of that i believe hunters are fine since damage gets tunned down overall next patch + Rapid fire setbonus change and blink strike change making it less bursty but better sustained.

For the most part I feel that is all that's holding the other specs back,having a trinket on half the cd, is too good. Also that it's a specialization specific ability, rather than a talent. Lol. Play style of BM is pretty lackluster overall from my pov there is no real damage set up even though I've read people arguing the opposite, waiting for abilities to come off of cd to use them at the same time isn't exactly set up ( as surv you work around tnt procs, marks has aimed procs but aimed shot is worse than arcane after 80% health). Even though BM fixed every hunter problem at once (LoS, Dying in stun, not having stun abilities) I believe it gave way to other bullshit to exist in the game outside of hunters because you can look back and say that's in the game so this should be too, idk what would be so hard to remove a dr from cc (May have something to do with 100% not being exactly divisible by 3 not sure I don't do coding) so having another trinket wouldn't be as powerful in comparison to those who don't have it. Yeah that exotic beasts thing is a little over the top, pet abilities having 30% reduction isn't needed.

#4 rageTG

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostJayxx, on 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:



We have instant cc (scatter, pet stun, silence, trap) the longest of which can be countered by collapsing on the target of the AoE. (lolcrosscc, any good team no matter what will find way to stop trap, a good hunter will get most of their traps off, but you don't have to deep into poly).


I'm sorry but this just isn't true, if you play perfectly your trap is really hard to eat unless they literally stack 3 on top of each other and explosive trap is on CD.

#5 hekumzx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:57 PM

View PostJayxx, on 27 April 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

one thing I've noticed is that hunter's take incredible spike damage

LOL.  Quit reading after this.

Good read would read again.

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#6 Jayxx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostrageTG, on 27 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm sorry but this just isn't true, if you play perfectly your trap is really hard to eat unless they literally stack 3 on top of each other and explosive trap is on CD.

Scatter/Pet stun, they stack exp trap. Pet stun/Scatter/NE Web into trap I get that. Also I'd like to have your traps if 2 people stacking isn't enough for the AoE to specifically hit the target you have cc'd. I'm not trying to defend shitty play or make an excuse to dumb down the class. Just want more talk about it, considering there are a lot of other classes that seem to have their opinions without really considering those of people who play the class. But I still love killing people in full gear 100-0 in 477 ilvl on a mage.

#7 Jayxx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

LOL.  Quit reading after this.

Good read would read again.
Okay so hunter runs at your teammates, you attack him and he doesn't die? god damn I must suck

#8 hekumzx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostJayxx, on 27 April 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

Okay so hunter runs at your teammates, you attack him and he doesn't die? god damn I must suck

Point is that every class in the game seems to take incredible spike damage.  It's paramount to saying "mages seem to take incredible spike damage so we get two iceblocks and flameglow but we can't move during iceblock so it's balanced since we are vulnerable when it ends."

View PostJayxx, on 27 April 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

But I still love killing people in full gear 100-0 in 477 ilvl on a mage.

This also is completely incorrect, Mage is probably the worst "good" class in the game right now in bad gear.  My mage is 484, pretty sure that with incanters, jadespirit and on use trinket up I hit for 120k bomb 87k bolt 76k lance shatters.  Roughly.  Not really sure who you're 100-0ing.  With the relic pve trinket on (instead of an actual trinket) and full int gems, my mage still has nearly the same spell power as venruki with full resil and proper trinket.

Edited by Hektiik, 27 April 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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#9 Evolute

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:44 PM

Roar of Sac is just too good of a defensive when the game literally revolves around scoring multiple critical strikes, especially when combined with the CC and Damage potential.

They need to lose something somewhere for hunters to be balanced in the current state of the game.

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#10 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:51 PM

The only thing hunters need to lose is damage and 1 min bm breaking everything. CC is fine

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#11 ernest

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostEvolute, on 27 April 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Roar of Sac is just too good of a defensive when the game literally revolves around scoring multiple critical strikes, especially when combined with the CC and Damage potential.

They need to lose something somewhere for hunters to be balanced in the current state of the game.

Hunters don't need to lose any defensive CDs. Killing hunters is not that difficult, we take more damage than any class in the game, we have 0 absorbing spells and our only real defensives either CC us or they are interrupts, kiting, and line of sight.

With the rapid fire change that hunter burst will be much more manageable, removing the cooldown spamming opener burst involved in thug cleave, kfc and similar comps. Also with the overall pvp power change i'm guessing the day bursting the openers through heals will be over. Hopefully skilled CC the determining factor again.

Also, with the big bm nerfs that are coming hopefully marksman will be the preferred spec again, it's already mine.

Edited by ernest, 27 April 2013 - 08:20 PM.

Hunters, least represented for 4 seasons.  Average for one.  Here comes the 5th at the bottom, and we're worse than ever.

Blizz sure learns fast.

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#12 Jayxx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:37 PM

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Point is that every class in the game seems to take incredible spike damage.  It's paramount to saying "mages seem to take incredible spike damage so we get two iceblocks and flameglow but we can't move during iceblock so it's balanced since we are vulnerable when it ends."
Okay then seems we found a culprit that isn't attributed to a single source. Not trying to justify circular logic with class balance, just want to see if anyone has a different direction for it in theory because I can't think of a better one but this always leads you back to where you started for a solution when the step back it self came from where you just were 2 steps before. It might be the only way the game would operate the way it does, but you never know.

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

This also is completely incorrect, Mage is probably the worst "good" class in the game right now in bad gear.  My mage is 484, pretty sure that with incanters, jadespirit and on use trinket up I hit for 120k bomb 87k bolt 76k lance shatters.  Roughly.  Not really sure who you're 100-0ing.  With the relic pve trinket on (instead of an actual trinket) and full int gems, my mage still has nearly the same spell power as venruki with full resil and proper trinket.
Yeah I probably should have said I had incanters/on use/windsong(ghetto mage) and altered the orb procs. I still don't think bullshit like that should be possible but I shouldn't have included it in my post because it shows bias when that's not what this is about honestly.

#13 hekumzx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:18 PM

Not sure if I'm noob at mage but you said altered orb procs, usually best to have a ffb proc, double pet nova, get incanter+trinket up, alter ffb, lance lance, alter, ffb lance, orb, deep lance lance lance.  Regardless, thats like 10 seconds.  Not sure that's 100-0ing someone.  Nonetheless ty for reply.

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#14 fant0m8

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

LOL.  Quit reading after this.

Good read would read again.

Do you even know the classes in this game? Hunters take more damage than anyone except maybe DPS monks (due to Iron Hawk).

They have no absorbs, no significant self heals, and they can't clear DoTs/bleeds in any way.


Hunters have always been an excellent target, the only reason they aren't in every situation right now is because of BM's 1 minute trinket. The moment BM gets nerfed enough to fall off the map, Hunter should be your kill target the vast majority of the time. I know it'll be mine.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#15 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:05 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 April 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Do you even know the classes in this game? Hunters take more damage than anyone except maybe DPS monks (due to Iron Hawk).

They have no absorbs, no significant self heals, and they can't clear DoTs/bleeds in any way.


Hunters have always been an excellent target, the only reason they aren't in every situation right now is because of BM's 1 minute trinket. The moment BM gets nerfed enough to fall off the map, Hunter should be your kill target the vast majority of the time. I know it'll be mine.
No they don't - rogues without feint, battle stance warriors, enhancements, retris and dks not in blood presence take 15% more than you do with your perma Iron Hawk. You are not even close to the easiest to kill class - hunters are only good targets for godcomps and nothing else.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#16 fant0m8

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PostBraindance, on 27 April 2013 - 10:05 PM, said:

No they don't - rogues without feint, battle stance warriors, enhancements, retris and dks not in blood presence take 15% more than you do with your perma Iron Hawk. You are not even close to the easiest to kill class - hunters are only good targets for godcomps and nothing else.


All of those classes have plenty of ways to mitigate damage or heal that Hunters lack. They aren't training dummies, they aren't going to just stand there and let you punch them.

As I said in my original post, this squishyness is being masked by BM's trinkets and readiness deterrence. Right at this moment BM Hunters are not the best target in a significant number of situations, but they are already slated to take some pretty severe nerfs, and I'm sure more will come. I'm not concerned about 5.2 BM hunters, they'll get theirs.

The point still stands that as a general rule of thumb, Hunters are an excellent target for basically anyone except the most kited of kitable comps (not that there are many of those still around).

And to your last sentence, Hunters are a top target for any team with a Hunter and have always been. The only thing I would target over a Hunter is a WotLK Mage, and they almost never play together.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#17 fant0m8

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostrageTG, on 27 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

I'm sorry but this just isn't true, if you play perfectly your trap is really hard to eat unless they literally stack 3 on top of each other and explosive trap is on CD.

What do you mean by "play perfectly"? Cross CC/using other cooldowns besides just scatter/trap? I thought the guy you quoted was speaking in more of a "theoretical"/"vacuum" type scenario, because using scatter+trap by itself is very easy to eat except against the few comps that have bad mobility.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#18 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:25 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 April 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

All of those classes have plenty of ways to mitigate damage or heal that Hunters lack. They aren't training dummies, they aren't going to just stand there and let you punch them.

As I said in my original post, this squishyness is being masked by BM's trinkets and readiness deterrence. Right at this moment BM Hunters are not the best target in a significant number of situations, but they are already slated to take some pretty severe nerfs, and I'm sure more will come. I'm not concerned about 5.2 BM hunters, they'll get theirs.

The point still stands that as a general rule of thumb, Hunters are an excellent target for basically anyone except the most kited of kitable comps (not that there are many of those still around).

And to your last sentence, Hunters are a top target for any team with a Hunter and have always been. The only thing I would target over a Hunter is a WotLK Mage, and they almost never play together.
With the major difference that there is no melee right now that has good uptime on hunters. I have twice the uptime on a mage than I do on a hunter. You might lack the defensive cooldowns, but you have by far the most effective arsenal of any other class in the game to avoid melee, which significantly adds to your longevity. As I said, you are a good target only for godcomps and other spell cleaves. Supposing you playing thug, it's x100 better for me to train the rogue (or insert other melee here), chew all his defensive cds in 1 minute (literally) then gib him than go for the hunter and get kitted perpetually.

Again, my view is that hunters need almost no cc nerf cause they were always a control class with decent burst, but now you have both good control and some of the best damage. So hunter damage should be toned down and something has to change about the bm trinket. CC should stay as is.

Also what purple said is true - no team can ever take all traps unless they completely stack on the trap target which opens them other forms of cc.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#19 fant0m8

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:31 PM

View PostBraindance, on 27 April 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

something has to change about the bm trinket.

Absolutely. I think it's ruining the class atm. Pretty much every problem that people have from Hunters stems from that 1 min trinket that can be reset.

I guarantee you that there are comps out there with a melee that can stick to MM hunters. They can't stick to BM, but hopefully the nerfs make BM pretty nonviable.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#20 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:34 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 April 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

Absolutely. I think it's ruining the class atm. Pretty much every problem that people have from Hunters stems from that 1 min trinket that can be reset.

I guarantee you that there are comps out there with a melee that can stick to MM hunters. They can't stick to BM, but hopefully the nerfs make BM pretty nonviable.
I am totally fine with MM. It is bm that is annoying as hell with that trinket, because they lose nothing. At least locks lose 20% of their hp.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...




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