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It's me or MoP made the game unskill ?


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#41 Jeffisnumberone

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:39 AM

MoP has been decent so far outside of godcomp and kfc. I agree with others that wotlk had the most diversity as far as comps go and the highest skill cap but cataclysm made WoW go downhill, not mop.
Posted ImagePosted Image

#42 Numbtoes

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:48 AM

I think that they should just focus on making sure that every class has at least one top tier spec. Maybe something like they really focus on making Holy paladins the best pvp spec and ret would be a tier two spec. Same thing for most hybrid classes. When they focus on trying to balance every spec for every class they game becomes too bloated and there are too many counters to counter to counters and so on.

#43 Conviqx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:02 AM

RIP Cataclysm <3

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#44 kazuhmeer

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:52 AM

whats funny is people talking about variety in 3v3 like any exists.  over 2.2k this is your ques:

hunter/x/y
spriest/x/y

where:

X has a 75% change of being rogue
20% chance to be feral
4% mage
1% everyone else

Y has a 80% chance to be sham
10% chance to be disc
10% chance to be resto
0% paladin

#45 Seu

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:53 AM

View PostBraindance, on 26 April 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

It's you. Wotlk took more skill



Oh wait

did you even play wotlk

thats tr in s5 gear, s7 beastcleave was manageable outside of rov (and ruins to an extent). yes it was retarded but you could outplay as rmp by having your mage/priest stack and kite the hunter enhance around pillars and sitting your rogue on the enhance with hard swaps on fears (which were actually possible with old tremor mechanics).

good beastcleaves like toez team were difficult to beat because he would buff the pets making it take longer to get lust off and you didnt really get a lot of free globals, but mongol idiot beastcleaves were terrifying free points.

there were mongol comps all through wrath just like every other expansion but they were manageable depending on skill level and you actually had to play different against top teams. atc was a problem in season 6 but it wasn't the monstrosity of s12 unless you were playing against alloran.

there isnt even strategy in this game anymore, you cant even begin to compare wotlk to mop


edit: just read the rest of his posts in this thread and i feel stupid for even taking the time to reply to this idiot

Edited by Seu, 27 April 2013 - 03:54 AM.


#46 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostSeu, on 27 April 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

did you even play wotlk

thats tr in s5 gear, s7 beastcleave was manageable outside of rov (and ruins to an extent). yes it was retarded but you could outplay as rmp by having your mage/priest stack and kite the hunter enhance around pillars and sitting your rogue on the enhance with hard swaps on fears (which were actually possible with old tremor mechanics).

good beastcleaves like toez team were difficult to beat because he would buff the pets making it take longer to get lust off and you didnt really get a lot of free globals, but mongol idiot beastcleaves were terrifying free points.

there were mongol comps all through wrath just like every other expansion but they were manageable depending on skill level and you actually had to play different against top teams. atc was a problem in season 6 but it wasn't the monstrosity of s12 unless you were playing against alloran.

there isnt even strategy in this game anymore, you cant even begin to compare wotlk to mop


edit: just read the rest of his posts in this thread and i feel stupid for even taking the time to reply to this idiot
You should feel stupid for what your wrote. Ofc yes Posted ImagePosted Image took more skill.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#47 Seu

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostBraindance, on 27 April 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

You should feel stupid for what your wrote. Ofc yes Posted ImagePosted Image took more skill.

good point, i knew everyone in this thread but you was wrong all along

#48 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:20 AM

View PostSeu, on 27 April 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

good point, i knew everyone in this thread but you was wrong all along
I am not saying everyone is wrong and I am right. It's my opinion and how I see the game. If you actually read my posts (as you claimed) you would have seen that I said that wotlk was fun but MoP is more balanced.. Just visit sections of AJ from 2009 and 2010 and see with your own eyes how people perceived the game back then.

We were having a nice discussion; dunno you came here calling me an idiot.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#49 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:46 AM

Oh look what I found:

http://www.arenajunk...st-season-ever/
http://www.arenajunk...__all__st__5190

Keep going back through the pages and see with your very eyes that the same ppl defending wotlk now were the same ppl flaming it.
and for you seu

http://www.arenajunk...er/page__st__40

Edited by Braindance, 27 April 2013 - 04:49 AM.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#50 Seu

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:11 AM

View PostBraindance, on 27 April 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

Oh look what I found:

http://www.arenajunk...st-season-ever/
http://www.arenajunk...__all__st__5190

Keep going back through the pages and see with your very eyes that the same ppl defending wotlk now were the same ppl flaming it.
and for you seu

http://www.arenajunk...er/page__st__40

thanks for going through my post history but i was agreeing with lolflay as he was a shadowpriest, which is why I prefaced my post with "shadow priest". disc was fine and i played both specs - also worth noting is that words like "broken", "playable", and "shit" meant different things at the time as blizzard pushed the limits of "shit" with the last two expansions to levels we just couldn't have forseen.

im suprised that was the best you could manage, we had a ton to complain about as all people do every expansion and i know i had a few posts worse than that but its totally normal and its all relative. before the great depression people complained about not being able to afford a new couch or a bigger house, and during the great depression people complained about not being able to afford a potato.

compared to now, balance whines back then were very picky and specific. now we just at least want a fucking potato

#51 fant0m8

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:36 AM

Personally I think Wizards ruined the end of Wrath, but I'm sure the wizards will disagree.


Why do you think there are 500 pages in the MS paint rage thread?

Oh and let's not forget the Blizzcon that killed competitive WoW, with baubles on all 3 teammates and endless games that were literally a damage meter contest.

Don't get me wrong, I obviously enjoyed Wrath (see titles), and hated Cata (made me quit the game for 2 years), but it wasn't perfect. Neither is MoP, and I would love to see BM Hunters disappear from the ladder just like the rest of you. I just ask that we give Marks a chance to show how it fairs before the campaigns to delete my class start up again.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#52 Thaya

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:01 AM

Frankly, I think beastcleave was a cool phenomenon for its time. People keep linking or mentioning it in every single WotLK balance discussion (not only on AJ), but you're all looking at it in a vacuum - it's incredibly stupid to ignore the context, how the rest of the game was at the time.

I remember when it first appeared on MLG, everyone was like "what is that random comp, enh lol" or "MLG inviting troll teams, well done". Did you know that they came up with the name "beastcleave" on that stream, because nobody even knew about its existence before? I even rooted for them - biased because I used to play enhancement shaman myself - and the games were exciting. Watching Venruki die from full health during a global cooldown (from Blink?) while surrounded by huge red corehounds, wolves, sprint animations, snake trap, windfury winds and sounds recorded in the pits of hell itself, was hilarious. The shoutcasters reaction to that was hilarious. Updating the AJ news thread and seeing like 40 posts that very second was hilarious (this was before stream chats); people trolling and making pictures about beastcleave throughout the whole thing was hilarious. Realizing that they can, actually, take the tournament and then seeing that happen was exciting - dark horse they call it, yes? I also recall MLD or MLS in the grand finals switching to a paladin healer in hopes that the bop and bubble uptime would save them, but nope.

It was something completely new, not even the best teams in the world at the time expected anybody to play all-in like that, and all ultimately lost, most teams without even winning a single match. I don't think TSG or melee cleaves in general are the same type of comp - sure, melee cleaves wet dream is to swifty you in a charge stun, but 90% of the time it's just two poor blokes popping defensive cooldowns in roots while their healer is on his 25th second of CC. Or melee vs melee: charge->clusterfuck, then someone dies from cleave offdamage. Rest of it was just variations of wizards, PHDK, RMP and RLS (on tournaments, live was a bit more diverse), which are all just standard pressure/push/tactic comps.

Sure it got old pretty fast after that MLG, when every shaman, hunter and paladin - main or alt - ran beastcleave in hopes to swifty people to glad while acting like clowns and pretending to be "doing it only for the lulz", but so did the comp itself, because people found ways to fight against it. And even then, I think tournament matches with them got MORE fun to watch when that happened, because you realized that regardless of tactics or match outcomes, they will do retarded damage and any healer who manages to pull that off for an entire match deserves respect, applause and a 10 minute smoke break after every game; you realized that even the smallest clutch plays could make or break the beastcleave, even a GCD out of hunters LoS or a DR'ed nova on shaman/pets could cost a game; you realized how pressured the teams were: one playing all-in and risking it all, just going "fuck it, yolo" in the first minute and then improvising, the other team going through an emotional panic attack test via health bars going 90-10-90-10, the loudest thing on voip is probably the sound of their healers keyboard, and nameplates spelling "fuck you" on their screens with all the pets and totems. I remember watching their games vs Hydra and vs that Korean RMP, and dear god those were some intense matches.

It's incredibly stupid to point at one comp that's based on swiftying - which actually surprised everybody by bringing something like THAT to the table in the first place and changing ladders globally - when the only reason it was so popular is because it was the first and the only comp in WotLK that properly swifty'ed people. Those of you who support variety and praise different comps/specs being viable should be viewing beastcleave as a GOOD thing in WotLK - I sure do; but all is good in moderation, and that's exactly what was great about beastcleave - it was the ONLY, ONE comp that played like that, it was beatable and really not even top tier (unless you're Toez, Twix and Flex). It was perfect design, and the whole beastcleave story is an example of how good WotLK was, not how bad it was.

Real problems in WotLK were LSD mirrors which were tests of patience for those sadomasochist nerds who enjoyed doing the exact same thing for 45 minutes straight and hoping to win the series by damage done, "triple healer" being triple healer not just because they're sp/ele/rdruid offhealing each other instead of doing damage, but because they used the ICC healing trinket (bauble - a huge, for an offhealer, TARGET heal on-use that is usable while silenced on a short CD), double healer comps being viable not only with PvE geared Warrior where it makes logical sense, but also with DK, Feral, and even fucking Warlock, and of course, protection warriors who equipped full PvE gear with 100% armor penetration, remained unkillable due to being tank specced, and could AoE deepfreeze you and your best friends while doing as much damage as a mage shattering into it, stacking -armor on you as an extra bonus for their hunter and pet to finish you off once you leave the safe sanctuary of the nagrand pillar you've been face hugging all this time because you paniced when your health suddenly dropped to 5%, while the warrior is still 90% because you're not a raid boss that he is designed to fight. Also, he will interrupt every single thing that involves a cast bar, and if he's in a funny mood he might let you reflect a spell.

And even then, I think I am just biased because I was on the receiving end of all of the above (I played DK at the time). I'm sure many people had genuine fun playing some of those comps, and that variety is an example of how good WotLK actually was. You know, Fabyo took rank 1 on one of the less active EU/GER BGs - and I mean "less active", not "inactive ghost town xrealm queue for top4 glad cutoff" - by playing double healer warlock. That's not even a serious comp, it's just that they played better than everybody else which let them get that spot (I've played vs them and saw them get that rank 1, it's legit). Here, I just remembered another solid example of what I was talking about earlier: you could achieve the highest level success (at least as far as online play goes) even with shit comps, because skill played a bigger role and contributed more to victory, so much more that it could overshadow the effects of gear or comp (probably not both, but that's still much better than Cata and MoP). Do note, again, that I'm not in any way saying that the skill ceiling reduced, or that the game became easier, or any of that stereotype AJ complaining - I am saying that the impact the PLAYERS have on the game is now LESS than it used to be, with comp and gear - predefined constants - contributing MORE than they used to.

I'd also like to point out that I named quite a few weird/unpopular comps in this text, which brings me to this idea: how about we collect ALL the playable comps of WotLK - and by playable I mean being able to reach a certain threshold of success with (for example, Glad) - and compare it with how many comps you can succeed with in MoP? I haven't done it, and I'm too lazy to go through with it (at least, right now), but I'm willing to bet that WotLK will win in diversity as well.
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#53 Braindance

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:15 AM

View PostThaya, on 27 April 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:


You can pull all those "cluth" thing even now - eg Venruki rings stampede which is similar to what you described. When I used the example of beastcleave, my intention was to show that mechanics like reck+avatar etc have been in the game since wotlk, hell even bc with death wish.

Regarding the Fabio example; if I am not mistaken, there was a team on Bloodlust that got glad as hunter/destro/something last season which is equally impressive.

Everything you describe can be done on live. The same ways you countered beastcleave you could counter kfc or thugcleave now or godcomp.

Of course now we have no prot warriors or completely broken pve gear or arp. Gear is no longer the case in this season - people hardly complain about gear since s13 came out.

Comps were always a big factor yes, but now most classes have a t1 comp and every class has at least one t2 comp. Examples:

Classes with t1 comps:
Mages, rogues, priests, shamans, hunters, druids, death knights
Classes with t2 comps:
All the above+warrior (war mage druid/kfc?), paladins(kfc?), monks(variety of different comps), locks (mage/lock/druid)

I am not even gonna bother enumerating #of specs viable because they are more than ever before.

So OVERALL (notice the word OVERALL) the game is in a good state BALANCEwise compared to cata and most of the seasons in wotlk.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#54 Shrouds

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:41 AM

They always over buff something to compensate each patch
for example rogues this patch got a ton of weird buffs that they didn't really need

but the worst thing is GEAR, like someone said before in BC and wotlk gear didn't matter as much as it does now I remember being in karazhan/half pvp gear in season 2 and still being like 2300. Now that Blizzard entitles everyone to gear it's kinda bad because if you don't have the gear you're at a huge disadvantage. It also felt kinda cool to earn gear in previous expansion because you could keep them for most of the expansion but now it's like great I have to buy all this stupid gear just to compete

#55 ROKMODE

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 April 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

Personally I think Wizards ruined the end of Wrath, but I'm sure the wizards will disagree.


Why do you think there are 500 pages in the MS paint rage thread?



Well, AJ was a hell of a lot more active back then, and the community in general was more vocal and engaging
A lot of those pages are s6 and whatnot as well with the good ol TSG pictures
Even then, wizards could be beaten, but a lot of caster comps had the advantage. The option to win vs better teams was there in wotlk. You could actually beat counter comps too.
Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#56 Thaya

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostBraindance, on 27 April 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:


You can pull all those "cluth" thing even now - eg Venruki rings stampede which is similar to what you described. When I used the example of beastcleave, my intention was to show that mechanics like reck+avatar etc have been in the game since wotlk, hell even bc with death wish.

Regarding the Fabio example; if I am not mistaken, there was a team on Bloodlust that got glad as hunter/destro/something last season which is equally impressive.

Everything you describe can be done on live. The same ways you countered beastcleave you could counter kfc or thugcleave now or godcomp.

Of course now we have no prot warriors or completely broken pve gear or arp. Gear is no longer the case in this season - people hardly complain about gear since s13 came out.

Comps were always a big factor yes, but now most classes have a t1 comp and every class has at least one t2 comp. Examples:

Classes with t1 comps:
Mages, rogues, priests, shamans, hunters, druids, death knights
Classes with t2 comps:
All the above+warrior (war mage druid/kfc?), paladins(kfc?), monks(variety of different comps), locks (mage/lock/druid)

I am not even gonna bother enumerating #of specs viable because they are more than ever before.

So OVERALL (notice the word OVERALL) the game is in a good state BALANCEwise compared to cata and most of the seasons in wotlk.
Well, perhaps you are right, but I initially replied to you because you said WotLK balance was "utter shit". I am not bashing MoP as much as I am defending WotLK, and I am so stubborn about it because I have recent experience with both (via AT). It's not all black and white, just because I like WotLK doesn't mean I hate MoP - a lot of my recent posts are aimed at improving it.

But if you want to talk about MoP, sure.

Even if we ignore thug and the gear system being a complete disaster, I still think that MoP gameplay is too much about cooldowns and trinkets - nothing is ever in danger outside of cooldowns and/or healer CC, usually requiring both to land a kill (and forcing healer trinket usually takes cooldowns as well, due to all the defenses classes have plus the optional, but very common, pocket shadowbuddy).

What I enjoyed about this game is creating constant, spread pressure, allowing me and my team to play more aggressively and push forward. I enjoyed creating kill opportunities by spamming so much damage that we could move into their pillar to get healer CC opportunities, or simply make him fall back on healing to force panic and try to capitalize on that (e.g. landing a lucky heal CS after dotting all the things). I enjoyed dodging the enemy teams attempts to prevent me from topping recount, even though I have natural talent in catching spell locks, random focus kicks, every aoe stun in the game, and stoneclaw totem is like a magnet for my right click. I enjoyed fearing DPS for the sake of outdamaging and outpressuring, not saving my DRs for when they pop CDs or when my healer got into a CC chain because their hunter managed to get within 20 yards of him and pressed Scatter Shot; saving DRs was useful in all the other expansions too, of course, but it was never a necessary best practice in all situations. I enjoyed popping my CDs to create pressure in the first place, looking for a good 15-20 second freecasting opportunity, yelling PUSH FORWARD DUDE THINGS ARE MELTING on voip, instead of keeping them for the moment we need to spam the fuck out of everything on the keyboard because my team mate landed a lucky 8 second CC that him or me are going to follow up with another 15 seconds of afk time (unless he is a shaman, fuck shaman). I enjoyed my defense being passive, not only because I'm so bad with active defenses I sometimes have to hide behind a pillar from my healer in hopes he doesn't notice that I'm glowing and shit, but because it added a certain flavor to the playstyle where you could push in a little bit more than every other class, but if you got caught overextending, your only ways out are pvp trinket or leave arena.

I guess all I'm trying to say is this: bring affliction back

I also want to explicitly state that this particular post is completely biased and personal opinion. I am sure there are plenty of people who enjoy a cooldown/trinket chess game more than I do, and there's absolutely nothing wrong in that. I believe I'm in the minority here, really; most classes were always based around cooldown usage and pulling off certain combinations, and I feel more people enjoy that than routinely spamming dots. I've always enjoyed being the support DPS, just there to make sure all the things are melting and do the occasional "oh my god I just feared a shaman dude (you believe me right?)" to help my buddy stomp something.
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#57 Razghul

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:37 AM

View Postchangee, on 26 April 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Since CATACLYSM, i feel like being a skilled player doesn't really matter

Fixed that for you sir

Edited by Razghul, 27 April 2013 - 11:37 AM.


#58 hekumzx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:37 PM

@Thaya
WTLK AT is active because of poor europeans and people with shit computers.  The only reason good players play there is to make money, the server is not anything like WTLK was. Druids aren't even viable healers in 3s yet druids were 70% of comp healers on retail.  Don't use flawed logic to validate your opinion.

@MOP
Pretty much.

View PostFilthpig, on 26 April 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

BC - Play multiple viable comps, a decent amount of viable specs, long games.
WotLK- Tons of viable comps, most specs viable at some point, short to medium length games.
Cata - Few viable comps, decent amount of viable specs, short boring games.
MoP - Very few viable comps, very few viable specs, some classes not even viable whatsoever, short uneventful games due to arbitrary cc and ridiculous damage.

A comprehensive look at resto shaman, from the inside out - http://i.imgur.com/icr36xO.png

Posted Image

Official Blizzard Quote:

11/18/10
Balance isn't as easy as some seem to think and often balance is in the eye of the beholder.. We believe priests will be in good shape if not great..

#59 Official

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

View Postchangee, on 26 April 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

I started to flame my mate saying "dude, they are so shit, how can we lose to them" but I finally realized that it's just how the game is now.

Shouldn't feel the need to flame your partner/s, take a loss on the chin and re-queue.

HATERS

Having Anger Towards Everyone Reaching Success


#60 Thaya

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

@Thaya
WTLK AT is active because of poor europeans and people with shit computers.
You're begging for a ban. Be civilized.

View PostHektiik, on 27 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

The only reason good players play there is to make money, the server is not anything like WTLK was. Druids aren't even viable healers in 3s yet druids were 70% of comp healers on retail.  Don't use flawed logic to validate your opinion.
I only mentioned AT once at the beginning of the dialogue to say that my opinion about the gameplay and dynamics is based on recent experiences, not nostalgia. You could remove any mention of AT from my posts and their logic and argumentation will remain fully intact, because everything else I talked about happened on live.

I'm quite sure its easier to make money on live.
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