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Cloak and Dagger nerfed on PTR


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#61 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:30 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

You got it wrong. He wants to reduce the energy cost of Ambush to 40 all the time and prevent more than one ability being used in stealth. Means Subterfuge would only make openers save but not allow a second/third opener. In my opinion that (and the additional suggested CnD nerf to 15 yards) would be overkill. Ambush is not used outside of Dance/Subterfuge ever. It could probably cost 0 energy and we would still open with Cheap Shot or Garrote as sub.

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

That would work, but first of all - Subterfuge is a fun talent and it was fully ok in 5.1 - don't overnerf rogues. They took some hits already for 5.3 and I suggest seeing how it turns out before nerfing them any further. Rogue/Spriest comps got nerfed pretty strong and rogue/hunter took some hits on their burst and CC (Garrote/Cheap Shot/Intimidation/Blink Strike). Hunters got more constant damage and less burst and rogue teams need the coordinated burst. Other classes that rogue teams crushed (Paladins for example) got buffs (Devotion Aura). Let's see how it plays out first. Holinka isn't shy to apply hotfixes.

It's kind of funny that we seem to have pretty much exactly the same thoughts about rogues, but when I say it I get random 2.2k nobodies trolling me. Guess I'm just not political enough. ^^

Edited by hid, 26 April 2013 - 02:31 PM.


#62 Jaxington

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:31 PM

So I read this thread and I am still at the same conclusion I came to myself a long time ago on the 5.2 PTR:

Remove Cloak n Dagger and add back Hit n Run.  Hit n Run was honestly the most fun talent I ever used.  

Also subterfuge is gay and I hate using it plx remove asap
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#63 Korzul

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:39 PM

Quote

Let's see how it plays out first.

Just that, blizz for once have quite a good base to start from. It's time to start doing small tweaks and seeing how they pan out instead of attempting to change everything at once and completely swinging the meta game from one extreme to the other

#64 Jaxington

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:47 PM

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=137638
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#65 Silhin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Energy reduction for Ambush outside of Dance would be way stronger than what we have now, especially for sub. The core problem is not Subterfuge, it's Cloak and Dagger. A passive talent that outshines the active one by a far margin, reduces the number of binds needed (target/focus/party1/2). In my opinion the passive talents should always be weaker than the active talent when used at full potential. This is way I think Feint is a better designed ability than Cheat Death, same goes for ShS being better designed than C&D, it's simply to weak in comparision.

Maybe remove C&D, add two talents, one that gives ShS with a 15 second cooldown and one that gives two times ShS, similar to warrior T1 talents.

I could kiss u Ive been saying this shit for years Passive talents promote poor game play more bring the talent not the player type deal

everything from teleporting when using ambush to ring of peace auto disarm is just stupid everything u do should be a direct result of u using a ability to do it

#66 Silhin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:07 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 26 April 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Its just absurdly frustrating the way subterfuge currently works, and the gameplay it promotes. Rogues spend the entire game doing nothing but trying to get restealths. Though I agree that they shouldn't buff/nerf classes in such large batches, rather incrementally through hot fixes.

the only issue i see with what u said is that people have been catered to not care that a rogues gets a Re and it should be somthing u care about when a class built around stealth gets to get back in stealth

In the past and current people try there very best not to let Ferals get re cuz there openers from stealth were very strong same should apply to rogue

If u let the rogue get a re thats on you and your team with the exception to vanish and such

#67

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostSilhin, on 26 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

the only issue i see with what u said is that people have been catered to not care that a rogues gets a Re and it should be somthing u care about when a class built around stealth gets to get back in stealth

In the past and current people try there very best not to let Ferals get re cuz there openers from stealth were very strong same should apply to rogue

If u let the rogue get a re thats on you and your team with the exception to vanish and such

Rogues act like preventing restealths is the easiest thing in the world, when literally the only way to stop it is to just tunnel the rogue, otherwise if they run around the corner for 4 seconds they get a restealth minidance->cheapshot the entire team. It used to be just keeping a dot on a rogue would prevent them, or at the very least the rogue had to time his stealth between ticks, but now its completely mindless. Everything about rogues right now is utterly mindless. Spam restealth as hard as you possibly can and ctrl 1-2-3 or whatevr your cheap/garrote 123 binds are, and keep doing that until you can global someone in a dance/blades. Granted the skill cap on every class has gone done dramatically, but it has plummeted for rogues in just the last season.

Nothing matters, you don't need to think, you don't need to pay attention, just mash cheap/garrote on the entire team, spam your 40 interrupts, and eventually kill something.

#68 Regent

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 26 April 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Rogues act like preventing restealths is the easiest thing in the world, when literally the only way to stop it is to just tunnel the rogue, otherwise if they run around the corner for 4 seconds they get a restealth minidance->cheapshot the entire team. It used to be just keeping a dot on a rogue would prevent them, or at the very least the rogue had to time his stealth between ticks, but now its completely mindless. Everything about rogues right now is utterly mindless. Spam restealth as hard as you possibly can and ctrl 1-2-3 or whatevr your cheap/garrote 123 binds are, and keep doing that until you can global someone in a dance/blades. Granted the skill cap on every class has gone done dramatically, but it has plummeted for rogues in just the last season.

Nothing matters, you don't need to think, you don't need to pay attention, just mash cheap/garrote on the entire team, spam your 40 interrupts, and eventually kill something.

What I hate is when rogues complain about it.

"Lol stopping restealth is so easy, just hit me"

"LOL YOU JUST TRAIN ME TO THE GROUND. GG MELEE CLEAVE NO SKILL."

#69 Silhin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

I can't tell if the last 2 post r that clueless or just trollin

#70 spaceship

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostSilhin, on 26 April 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

the only issue i see with what u said is that people have been catered to not care that a rogues gets a Re and it should be somthing u care about when a class built around stealth gets to get back in stealth

In the past and current people try there very best not to let Ferals get re cuz there openers from stealth were very strong same should apply to rogue
When has this not been the case? Re-stealths have always been scary in the last few seasons just because of Find Weakness (and now PotW, etc.). In Cata, for example, rogues could do comparable damage to Dance when spamming talented backstabs with FW up.

If people weren't afraid of rogue openers I don't think it was because they weren't strong.

#71 moelol

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

View Posthid, on 26 April 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

LOOLLL

"no no. this knife is not dangerous. just slide it against ur throat it will be fine trust me you will get used to it"

ok mr :rogue: :rogue:  how are u going to get used to deal with subterfuge when you cant do anything because theyre invisible??

#72 Seryiachan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:47 PM

☺i liek 2 shadowd4nc3 ☻

#73 Korzul

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

My main and only real gripe with this ability is if someone pops blades during an opener you eat at least one shadow blades evis before you have a chance to notice the buff is even up and less than a second to react before the MFD 2nd evis is coming.

#74 hid

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:09 AM

View PostKorzul, on 26 April 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

My main and only real gripe with this ability is if someone pops blades during an opener you eat at least one shadow blades evis before you have a chance to notice the buff is even up and less than a second to react before the MFD 2nd evis is coming.

Don't see what shadow blades has to do with evisc in the opener, other than the increased CP generation. You can do the exact thing you described without using shadow blades. If you just mean the increased pressure in the opener from the rogue popping shadow blades/dance while in subterfuge, well, there are a lot of clues you can use to figure out if the rogue will want to do that. If playing with another bursty class (live hunter) it's way more likely he'll pressure right on the opener. If he opens on you while you're out of line of sight of the other DPS, have the other DPS cc'd or if you have a spirit shell/ES/full hots/whatever defensive cd up before he opens he also probably won't waste his CDs.

It's quite easy actually, if you yourself feel like you're in a situation where you might die(or end up wasting a lot of defensives) if he pops all his CDs, you probably are, and he probably is.

#75 averuki

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:35 AM

Before if you tried to restealth you had to wait to drop combat and do it between dot ticks when you had any on yourself. Right now you just run behind the pillar spamming stealth and when you finally drop combat for a second you just go back and you dont have to care about anything because of subterfuge and cloak and dagger.

#76

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:39 AM

View Posthid, on 27 April 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Don't see what shadow blades has to do with evisc in the opener, other than the increased CP generation. You can do the exact thing you described without using shadow blades. If you just mean the increased pressure in the opener from the rogue popping shadow blades/dance while in subterfuge, well, there are a lot of clues you can use to figure out if the rogue will want to do that. If playing with another bursty class (live hunter) it's way more likely he'll pressure right on the opener. If he opens on you while you're out of line of sight of the other DPS, have the other DPS cc'd or if you have a spirit shell/ES/full hots/whatever defensive cd up before he opens he also probably won't waste his CDs.

It's quite easy actually, if you yourself feel like you're in a situation where you might die(or end up wasting a lot of defensives) if he pops all his CDs, you probably are, and he probably is.

*If a rogue opens on you, just guess if he's popping cd's."
Thanks for that Hid

View Postaveruki, on 27 April 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Before if you tried to restealth you had to wait to drop combat and do it between dot ticks when you had any on yourself. Right now you just run behind the pillar spamming stealth and when you finally drop combat for a second you just go back and you dont have to care about anything because of subterfuge and cloak and dagger.

ITS SO EASY TO STOP ROGUES FROM RESTEALTHING, ARE YOU SOME KIND OF RETARD OR SOMETHING?
-The Rogue community

Edited by Radejjj, 27 April 2013 - 12:40 AM.


#77 Korzul

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:59 AM

Quote

It's quite easy actually, if you yourself feel like you're in a situation where you might die(or end up wasting a lot of defensives) if he pops all his CDs, you probably are, and he probably is.

Sorry but what you typed is crap, i can be earthshielded and riptided up (jk getting dispelled anyway by whatever priest/shaman is healing them) with my partners close (jk hunter/priest/sap ccing) KNOWING the rogue is always going to open on me.

Now i can trinket the cheap instantly and get some defensives/tremor up if needed but if he isn't going balls to the wall with double proc trinkets and blades then at any point in the next 2 mins he can effective solo me when he does decide to use blades. If he has used everything and i wait the extra 2-3 seconds to check his buffs/procs then i've lost another 150-200k life and risking simply getting gibbed in the opener due to fear/explosive shot scattering partners out of link range/ ns not healing for shit without a global on unleash (which will be silence shotted/2nd cheap/garrote if i dare try to spend a global on said unleash) and tide being placed too late.

I don't care about the garrote into cheaps/cheap shot or garrote entire teams to peel, what i do care is having offensives so strong and them being undetectable until a possible 300k's worth of burst from the rogue alone has already landed.

Imagine there was a 3 sec delay on seeing reck or dark soul.. i'm sure you'd love wondering if those shockwaves or chaosbolts were going to do moderate or massive damage. As someone above said playing a guessing game as to whether this opener is survivable against any unknown random rogue doesn't appeal very much.

P.S I don't even know why i'm complaining about subterfuge in a CnD thread, it just a part of the game that really irks me.
It should really just allow the use of stealthed abilities for 3 seconds after stealth breaks instead of keeping you in stealth for those 3 seconds, though i guess people would be pissed about the extra binds needed.

Edited by Korzul, 27 April 2013 - 01:07 AM.


#78 Conviqx

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:01 AM

its actually disgusting to read people whining about restealth
http://www.twitch.tv/conviq

Dost Thou Even Hoist?

#79 kazuhmeer

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:22 AM

View PostConviqx, on 27 April 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

its actually disgusting to read people defending this shit

fixed

#80 Marshmellow

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:35 AM

View Postkazuhmeer, on 27 April 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

fixed

Does it really surprise you that it's all the :rogue: :rogue: :rogue: :rogue:  defending it?
Posted ImagePosted Image              Posted Image




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