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Cloak and Dagger nerfed on PTR


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#41

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 06:58 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Energy reduction for Ambush outside of Dance would be way stronger than what we have now, especially for sub. The core problem is not Subterfuge, it's Cloak and Dagger. A passive talent that outshines the active one by a far margin, reduces the number of binds needed (target/focus/party1/2). In my opinion the passive talents should always be weaker than the active talent when used at full potential. This is way I think Feint is a better designed ability than Cheat Death, same goes for ShS being better designed than C&D, it's simply to weak in comparision.

Maybe remove C&D, add two talents, one that gives ShS with a 15 second cooldown and one that gives two times ShS, similar to warrior T1 talents.

Make ShS baseline, remove CnD, replace both talents with the two you suggest, up the energy cost of Burst of speed slightly. Remove the stealth part of subterfuge, just keep it a mini dance. Nerf feint to like 20-25% and add a 10% damage reduction to recuperate or SnD. There are some other things that should maybe be nerfed, but if subterfuge and CnD are nerfed everything else will be for the most part fine.

Edited by Radejjj, 26 April 2013 - 07:04 AM.


#42 WildeHilde

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:26 AM

That would work, but first of all - Subterfuge is a fun talent and it was fully ok in 5.1 - don't overnerf rogues. They took some hits already for 5.3 and I suggest seeing how it turns out before nerfing them any further. Rogue/Spriest comps got nerfed pretty strong and rogue/hunter took some hits on their burst and CC (Garrote/Cheap Shot/Intimidation/Blink Strike). Hunters got more constant damage and less burst and rogue teams need the coordinated burst. Other classes that rogue teams crushed (Paladins for example) got buffs (Devotion Aura). Let's see how it plays out first. Holinka isn't shy to apply hotfixes.

#43

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

That would work, but first of all - Subterfuge is a fun talent and it was fully ok in 5.1 - don't overnerf rogues. They took some hits already for 5.3 and I suggest seeing how it turns out before nerfing them any further. Rogue/Spriest comps got nerfed pretty strong and rogue/hunter took some hits on their burst and CC (Garrote/Cheap Shot/Intimidation/Blink Strike). Hunters got more constant damage and less burst and rogue teams need the coordinated burst. Other classes that rogue teams crushed (Paladins for example) got buffs (Devotion Aura). Let's see how it plays out first. Holinka isn't shy to apply hotfixes.

Its just absurdly frustrating the way subterfuge currently works, and the gameplay it promotes. Rogues spend the entire game doing nothing but trying to get restealths. Though I agree that they shouldn't buff/nerf classes in such large batches, rather incrementally through hot fixes.

#44 Oldog

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:21 AM

View Posthid, on 26 April 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

That would completely and utterly defeat the point of the talent, and noone in their right mind would ever pick it. The talent is fine, it's strong, all classes have strong talents/skills but you're simply used to handling those things while subterfuge/C&D is a new rogue thing. You'll get used to it.

Cute re-phrasal of the standard 'x is fine l2p' argument!

#45 Woundman

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Energy reduction for Ambush outside of Dance would be way stronger than what we have now, especially for sub. The core problem is not Subterfuge, it's Cloak and Dagger. A passive talent that outshines the active one by a far margin, reduces the number of binds needed (target/focus/party1/2). In my opinion the passive talents should always be weaker than the active talent when used at full potential. This is way I think Feint is a better designed ability than Cheat Death, same goes for ShS being better designed than C&D, it's simply to weak in comparision.

Maybe remove C&D, add two talents, one that gives ShS with a 15 second cooldown and one that gives two times ShS, similar to warrior T1 talents.

If Subterfuge was changed to what I suggested, then reducing ambushes energy cost to 40 and removing the energy reduction from Dance would make sense. I agree that Subterfuge isn't the core problem. However, Subterfuge does need some adjustment. It has too much synergy with Cloak and Dagger and is honestly one of our best talents.

#46 WildeHilde

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

Yes, the issue is the combination of C&D and Subterfuge. Thought about it and you are right, the 40 energy would have close to no effect as pretty much no one ever uses Ambush without Find Weakness up first except for some rare cases in which you finish someone with Vanish -> Ambush.

Your suggestions (15 yard range and first offensive move removes Subterfuge) I doubt these talents would be worth it anymore, as it neither adds to mobility nor to damage in any way. 15 yard means to cannot follow Blink or Disengage, Chi Torpedo or Displacer Beast etc. Subterfuge would only allow to get damaged and still land your opener.

That would promote the run or dance playstyle even more in which rogues pretty much have nothing outside of dance. I think that either would make 90% of the rogues try to blow absolutely everything in the opener or force them to play like Kalimist did during the S8 regionals, which did not work although that team was pretty damn good during that time.

I think rewarding restealths is a good thing, it's easy to prevent and has a huge trade-off. I would rather remove Cloak and Dagger completely than nerfing both talents to the ground. Cloak and Dagger makes things too easy, true. But Subterfuge cross-cc is good gameplay in my opinion and it has a trade-off with the energy cost.

#47 Mbgz

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:06 AM

cheap now have 10 sec Cd. garrote now have 10 sec Cd.

Fixd. cya bois.

#48 Eveny

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:47 AM

View PostMbgz, on 26 April 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

cheap now have 10 sec Cd. garrote now have 10 sec Cd.

Fixd. cya bois.

jk
If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#49 flay117

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:47 AM

Imagen if people would stop whining about subterfuge and rogues in general when there are so many other more broken things in this game.

jk nothing we talk about here will ever have an impact on anything in-game.




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#50 Conviqx

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostMbgz, on 26 April 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

cheap now have 10 sec Cd. garrote now have 10 sec Cd.

Fixd. cya bois.

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#51 akatyrone

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

the fact that you cant see an enemies buffs/debuffs until their opener is finished is complete nonsense. they can literally download swiftys entire macro book and cross reference molly as your emergency contact before you even know what's going on.

make them targetable in subterfuge or something, god damn shadow assassins.

#52 Njsx

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:51 PM

Subterfuge did not change at all from MoP release and not a soul complained about it until CnD came around, the talent is fine.  It's the combination of CnD and Subterfuge that creates issues; as many people in this thread have already stated.

Personally, as a rogue, in this day and age without subterfuge our openers would be pretty weak/instantly peeled with all the roots, stuns etc that every single class has now.  And restealths have always been a dangerous proposition for the opposing team, and the rogue should be rewarded for being able to get one.  That said, I actually think a CD on cheap shot and garrote would fix the issue entirely.  Even a 2 or 3 second CD on those abilities would prevent the stunning and silencing of entire teams on openers.  I would maybe make it so that during dance garrote and CS dont have CD's.  That way, if you're blowing ShD defensively it is still worth it, and you're sacrificing your big burst to keep people alive, which is a good tradeoff to have.

It would effectively nerf the Subterfuge + CnD combo that everyone hates, and every rogue knows is a bit much, but keep our defensive utility in tact.

#53 korzal

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

i think a cool compromise would be to give rogues a hunter-like camo after subterfuge.  you can see buffs, you can be peeled by certain abilities, but still have a nice advantage on openers. but with the nerfs to cnd/cheapshot/garrote already, i don't think rogues will need any additional nerfs

View PostWoundman, on 26 April 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

Edit: Once Subterfuge is nerfed, Ambush energy cost will have to reduced to 40 energy and the energy reduction from Shadow Dance removed. Ambush is then useful for all specs, not just Sub.
edit: read it wrong

Edited by korzal, 26 April 2013 - 02:21 PM.


#54 WildeHilde

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

You got it wrong. He wants to reduce the energy cost of Ambush to 40 all the time and prevent more than one ability being used in stealth. Means Subterfuge would only make openers save but not allow a second/third opener. In my opinion that (and the additional suggested CnD nerf to 15 yards) would be overkill. Ambush is not used outside of Dance/Subterfuge ever. It could probably cost 0 energy and we would still open with Cheap Shot or Garrote as sub.

#55 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostWoundman, on 26 April 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Explain the alternative then. I am basing my opinion on the past and why Rogues were so weak in the beginning of MoP. If you think you have a better idea, please share it with the rest of the community. I have buffs I did not mention, that would go great with my idea.

I'd be interested in hearing the rest of the buffs you wanted to go with that change. I just re-read what I posted and I didn't mean it to come off so condescending, just wrote it in a hurry.

My thoughts are honestly that rogues would be balanced just fine if they got only the glyph nerf, and they left C&D as it is. It might not be the optimal design and I can think of countless tweaks that could be done, but being realistic as to to what blizz could do with rogues this expansion I think the playstyle is in a pretty good spot. Worried that the C&D nerf is slightly over the top with all the other 5.3 changes in mind.

Guess we'll just have to wait and see after we've had time to play around on 5.3 for a while, but my feelings after playing the PTR for a bit is that we're in a pretty good spot, but I certainly don't feel as "OP" on PTR as on live relative to all other melees.

#56 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 26 April 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Good sir, I concur! Rogues are desperately in need of buffs! I must humbly disagree with any notion to nerf the rogue class as it is perfectly balanced right now, if anything the class is struggling!



Again good sir, I completely agree that rogues should be buffed in numerous ways, and any notion to nerf them is SIMPLY ABSURD!

You fine gentlemen should trust me, as I am rogue and I know best.

You getting upvotes for saying that really shows how stupid people can be on this forum.

#57 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostCelaurthor, on 26 April 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

I'm actually really interested in your "good" reasons for subterfuge being fine. You are prolly right being 100% unpeelable for 3 seconds every restealth/vanish is truly fair and balanced. And don't try the if you let a rogue restealth you need to l2p because I just got done watching cdew stream and the other teams rogue was able to get quite a few res easily. So unless you think Khryl Chanimals and Cdew are dog shit you might want to think up a new argument.

They aren't shit, and I never said you can prevent 100% of restealths, but certainly you can prevent a rogue from almost ever getting a restealth if you play right (obviously depends a lot on comps, but generally speaking.)

#58 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 April 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Energy reduction for Ambush outside of Dance would be way stronger than what we have now, especially for sub. The core problem is not Subterfuge, it's Cloak and Dagger. A passive talent that outshines the active one by a far margin, reduces the number of binds needed (target/focus/party1/2). In my opinion the passive talents should always be weaker than the active talent when used at full potential. This is way I think Feint is a better designed ability than Cheat Death, same goes for ShS being better designed than C&D, it's simply to weak in comparision.

Maybe remove C&D, add two talents, one that gives ShS with a 15 second cooldown and one that gives two times ShS, similar to warrior T1 talents.

I completely agree with everything said here, I just believe it's too big of a change for the class for blizzard to do it mid-expansion.

#59 hid

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostCreepStatus, on 26 April 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

can somebody ban this guy please

Why are people like you even here? You bring absolutely nothing to the discussion.

#60 Conviqx

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

you can actually prevent every restealth if u use your brain, subterfuge isnt 100% unpeelable i can easly peel other rogues in subterfuge and ive seen other actual good people use their ABILITIES to stop me in subterfuge.
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