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#161 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:12 AM

View Postdionim, on 24 April 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

I agree, but still waiting a reason to keep 34s tremor in the game


1 minute tremor remove it off of the talent that lets you kill it... Been saying this since the beginning of the damn expansion.

The reason tremor is kept in the game is because there is too much cc and too much instant cc. If they remove tremor it will be in a later expansion. Dispell CDs are retarded enough for any healer to deal with I'd love to not see more players eat more spammed cc.

I've never been opposed to tremors design even when playing classes that fear... however I am opposed to the talent that causes the reduced cd

#162 Nightmonkey

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

View Postdionim, on 23 April 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

first quote, say what op thing a disc priest have? and give us 1 reason to 34s tremor stay in the game.

second quote, mass dispel is what "counters" pally, but it still doenst make your bubble useless against a priest.
fear is a really good cc, but requires positioning and can be avoided easly unless you're cc'd already (and that cc will never come from the priest)
well im not defending disc, i think they need to nerf stuff like psyfiend

im just saying that 34s tremor isnt balanced, and needs to be changed, you can resume all this in two questions:

1 - is it balanced or not?

2 - if not, what can we do to change it, making it still be really good against fear, but not making you imunne to it.

Mass Dispel and Psychic Scream are the two biggest things that counter Paladins.  A well timed MD causes Bubble to act more like a PvP trinket.

What OP things do Priests have?  Psyfiend, Sprint/Stealth Fear, and from a Paladin's perspective - the current implementation of MD.

34s Tremor is perhaps too strong against Priests.  I think 1 minute Tremor would be better, the Shaman still gets to break fear but it becomes something he should use more carefully instead of trying to get every fear.

What I'm trying to figure out is this - at what point is it okay for one class to counter another?  Where do we draw the line?  Should Tremor be nerfed because it's too good against 1 or 2 classes, or is it their intention for Shaman to be as strong as they are against those 2 classes?

If Tremor was not as good as it is now, what would keep Priests in check?  If Tremor got nerfed further, what's to stop the ladder from filling up with nothing but Priest healers?  Priest and Shaman are already very dominant, and Shaman are already taking a huge hit from SPriest nerfs, so personally I do not think this is a very good time to continue nerfing Shaman unless we want to see Priests solidify their position as the best healer hands down.

In short, 34s is undeniably strong against Priests, but I think maybe it's necessary to keep Priests in check.

#163 Korzul

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:55 AM

Quote

I agree, but still waiting a reason to keep 34s tremor in the game

Because psychic scream is too strong and too easy to land and it's a complete game changer.  Lets flip this around a sec and pretend shamans had an AoE hex ability, then they jumped on the foums whining that "Boomkins and ferals are immune and can decurse! please nerf them!"

Once you have to work for your fears again or it's possible to stay away from a good priest who wants to land a fear then you can gut tremor. Until then i'd rather not start experiencing what holy paladins have to put up with vs hunter/disc/x comps because it's nowhere close to a fair fight.

#164 dionim

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:04 AM

View PostNightmonkey, on 24 April 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Mass Dispel and Psychic Scream are the two biggest things that counter Paladins.  A well timed MD causes Bubble to act more like a PvP trinket.

What OP things do Priests have?  Psyfiend, Sprint/Stealth Fear, and from a Paladin's perspective - the current implementation of MD.

Psyfiend is more dumb than the actual tremor, i agree.
Sprint and Stealth are 2 good talents, but they are only "lolop" when you have both together and when you want to fear, i think having to waste 2 talent choices to be able to use one spell isnt OP, but maybe im biased.

You guy say that is easy to fear, and here i disagre, its not hard for sure, but this isnt a reliable cc, that you can use w/e is on cd, is avoidable and if the priest use sprint/stealth it will become hard to avoid if you're in a short distance and have nothing or no room to run, but it also CC the priest for the duration hes chasing you in stealth.

If you both play healer, you should know that going to the enemy side of the map is really risky, sometimes nothing will happen, sometimes you will lose a game because you chose to fear.

Well i dont want to be the god class, i just dont get you guys saying that some class need something OP because the other class has something OP, if a class need buffs, lets buff it, if a class have a OP spell and need buffs, lets nerf the OP spell and buff what is needed.

edit. if is needed, nerf priests, but dont keep a retarded spell just to "control" a class in arena, what about the other healers? warlocks? warriors?

View PostKorzul, on 24 April 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

Because psychic scream is too strong and too easy to land and it's a complete game changer.  Lets flip this around a sec and pretend shamans had an AoE hex ability, then they jumped on the foums whining that "Boomkins and ferals are immune and can decurse! please nerf them!"

Once you have to work for your fears again or it's possible to stay away from a good priest who wants to land a fear then you can gut tremor. Until then i'd rather not start experiencing what holy paladins have to put up with vs hunter/disc/x comps because it's nowhere close to a fair fight.

I will finish my contribution on this thread with this quote.

Edited by dionim, 24 April 2013 - 01:14 AM.


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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:23 AM

View Postdionim, on 24 April 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Psyfiend is more dumb than the actual tremor, i agree.
Sprint and Stealth are 2 good talents, but they are only "lolop" when you have both together and when you want to fear, i think having to waste 2 talent choices to be able to use one spell isnt OP, but maybe im biased.

You guy say that is easy to fear, and here i disagre, its not hard for sure, but this isnt a reliable cc, that you can use w/e is on cd, is avoidable and if the priest use sprint/stealth it will become hard to avoid if you're in a short distance and have nothing or no room to run, but it also CC the priest for the duration hes chasing you in stealth.

If you both play healer, you should know that going to the enemy side of the map is really risky, sometimes nothing will happen, sometimes you will lose a game because you chose to fear.

Well i dont want to be the god class, i just dont get you guys saying that some class need something OP because the other class has something OP, if a class need buffs, lets buff it, if a class have a OP spell and need buffs, lets nerf the OP spell and buff what is needed.

edit. if is needed, nerf priests, but dont keep a retarded spell just to "control" a class in arena, what about the other healers? warlocks? warriors?



I will finish my contribution on this thread with this quote.

Psychic scream by itself isn't particularly difficult to avoid,even with the sprint/invis as annoying as that is. The problem is everyone else in the game has massive amounts of instant cc, that the priest fears off of. One of the reason disc/hunter/x is so good right now is even if you eat every single trap, the priest can fear you on cd off of scatters/lullubys/whatever. Every short cd instant cc, deep freeze, monk incapacitate, feral clone, rogues cheapshotting the world, leads to a sprint/invis fear that you can't do anything about. Obviously your partners do your best to stop it, but when he's invis, not every class has a big ass AoE that can break them out

It's also absurdly fucking annoying as a paladin when a priest runs at you invis and you literally just have to guess which way he's going, as a druid you can typhoon, shaman you have tremor, priest you can invis, as a paladin you just sprint and pray, assuming youre not cc'd already.

I think the sprint and invis should be on the same tier, the same goes for CnD and subterfuge, some talents just synergize too well. Most people probably disagree with this, but with an 8 second cd on dispel, I think Psychic scream should have a longer cd now too, something like 40 seconds, but a lot of the fear breaks should have longer cd's as well. Tremor/Berzerker rage should both be 1-2 minutes.

Edited by Radejjj, 24 April 2013 - 01:24 AM.


#166 Braindance

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:25 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 24 April 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

Psychic scream by itself isn't particularly difficult to avoid,even with the sprint/invis as annoying as that is. The problem is everyone else in the game has massive amounts of instant cc, that the priest fears off of. One of the reason disc/hunter/x is so good right now is even if you eat every single trap, the priest can fear you on cd off of scatters/lullubys/whatever. Every short cd instant cc, deep freeze, monk incapacitate, feral clone, rogues cheapshotting the world, leads to a sprint/invis fear that you can't do anything about. Obviously your partners do your best to stop it, but when he's invis, not every class has a big ass AoE that can break them out

It's also absurdly fucking annoying as a paladin when a priest runs at you invis and you literally just have to guess which way he's going, as a druid you can typhoon, shaman you have tremor, priest you can invis, as a paladin you just sprint and pray, assuming youre not cc'd already.

I think the sprint and invis should be on the same tier, the same goes for CnD and subterfuge, some talents just synergize too well. Most people probably disagree with this, but with an 8 second cd on dispel, I think Psychic scream should have a longer cd now too, something like 40 seconds, but a lot of the fear breaks should have longer cd's as well. Tremor/Berzerker rage should both be 1-2 minutes.
Yes and bubble should be 10 min cd not usable in arena.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#167 Nightmonkey

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:25 AM

Think about it this way, if Priests could always fear and never had to worry about people getting out of it, who would be the best healer then?

Priests.  Without a shadow of a doubt.  Do you really want to play a game where there is only one real choice of class if you want to heal?

My point is that Shaman just lost their biggest crutch that was holding them up, they're definitely going down a couple notches on the totem pole already for 5.3.  Now is not the time to start messing with Tremor totem.  Priests are already good enough and they don't need even more dominance over the other healers.  I just don't feel like it's necessary to mess with this right now.

Edit:  Lay the fuck off of Berserker Rage already.  What is everyone's obsession with making bad classes even worse in arena right now?

Are you really that annoyed with people breaking your fears that you want to make a bad situation worse?  That's what Warriors do, they break fears.  If you think it's hard to fear a Warrior now, you should have played in BC when Death Wish was a thing.

I'll give everyone bitching about Berserker Rage a little free advice, this one is on the house.  If you want to fear a warrior, incapacitate them first, watch the majority of them BRage it, wait 6 seconds, then enjoy a full fear on them.

Edited by Nightmonkey, 24 April 2013 - 01:35 AM.


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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:28 AM

View PostBraindance, on 24 April 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Yes and bubble should be 10 min cd not usable in arena.

Because obviously a 5 minute cd that is counterable, is comparable to something on a 30 second cd and uncounterable. I'm going to start to interject warrior nerfs in everything I say just to annoy you I think

Edited by Radejjj, 24 April 2013 - 01:30 AM.


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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:30 AM

View PostNightmonkey, on 24 April 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

Think about it this way, if Priests could always fear and never had to worry about people getting out of it, who would be the best healer then?

Priests.  Without a shadow of a doubt.  Do you really want to play a game where there is only one real choice of class if you want to heal?

My point is that Shaman just lost their biggest crutch that was holding them up, they're definitely going down a couple notches on the totem pole already for 5.3.  Now is not the time to start messing with Tremor totem.  Priests are already good enough and they don't need even more dominance over the other healers.  I just don't feel like it's necessary to mess with this right now.

This is the biggest problem with nerfing tremor right now. Disc/hunter/x is REALLY good right now, and poised to be a lot better in 5.3 since everything that fits that x is being buffed. Monks, ferals, rets, enhance, warriors, not to mention thug and phd will be extremely good, and rmp will probably be popular again. Nerfing tremor buffs thug cleave which needs massive nerfs right now

#170 Braindance

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:34 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 24 April 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Because obviously a 5 minute cd that is counterable, is comparable to something on a 30 second cd and uncounterable. nice on retard
1) There is one retard between us and it's not me
2) I feel your pain playing paladin right now, but I play warrior myself and I pain as much as you do
3) Zeker was fine during BC, WotLK, and Cata and no one complained. Now we have MoP, where instant cc is more prevalent than ever and almost every class has access to a stun. Currently there is more cc in the game than ever before. So you want to remove an ability that was fine since 2005 just because you, with an account 2 years old deem it at the same level as tremor. I got news for you - tremor breaks fears on an ENTIRE team; zeker only makes the warrior immune for 6 seconds.

Not even locks whined about zeker rage and now, according to you, it's on the same level as tremor. In addition, this corrupted view is slowly diffusing its way to other members of the forum.

You are a disaster.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#171

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:41 AM

View PostBraindance, on 24 April 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

1) There is one retard between us and it's not me
2) I feel your pain playing paladin right now, but I play warrior myself and I pain as much as you do
3) Zeker was fine during BC, WotLK, and Cata and no one complained. Now we have MoP, where instant cc is more prevalent than ever and almost every class has access to a stun. Currently there is more cc in the game than ever before. So you want to remove an ability that was fine since 2005 just because you, with an account 2 years old deem it at the same level as tremor. I got news for you - tremor breaks fears on an ENTIRE team; zeker only makes the warrior immune for 6 seconds.

Not even locks whined about zeker rage and now, according to you, it's on the same level as tremor. In addition, this corrupted view is slowly diffusing its way to other members of the forum.

You are a disaster.

Just because something was fine in 2005 doesn't mean it's fine now. Cheapshot/Garrote not having cd's was fine in vanilla, tbc, woltk, even cata, but it's not fine now. If you read what I said, Psychic scream needs a longer cd, comparable to Howl of terror, and regular warlock fear, along with poly, needs a short cd, 5 secondsish. Theres no reason for a class to be seemingly immune to fear. its an outdated mechanic. I know warriors have issues right now, but they're getting buffed, Stop flipping the fuck out when anyone says something about your class is op.

Edited by Radejjj, 24 April 2013 - 01:42 AM.


#172 Braindance

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:45 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 24 April 2013 - 01:41 AM, said:

Just because something was fine in 2005 doesn't mean it's fine now. Cheapshot/Garrote not having cd's was fine in vanilla, tbc, woltk, even cata, but it's not fine now. If you read what I said, Psychic scream needs a longer cd, comparable to Howl of terror, and regular warlock fear, along with poly, needs a short cd, 5 secondsish. Theres no reason for a class to be seemingly immune to fear. its an outdated mechanic. I know warriors have issues right now, but they're getting buffed, Stop flipping the fuck out anyone says something about your class is op.
No, I completely disagree. Such effects should remain as is, UNLESS there is a COMPLETE revamp of how the cc system work eg you can't be cc'd for more than 10 seconds every 30 seconds (all forms of ccs from clone to poly to fear). Until then no, because we are by far the most cc prone class, especially with an 8 second cooldown on dispel. If they revamp the system and/or remove the cd on dispel then we can discuss again. But now that cc is stronger than ever before just no.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#173 Djandawg

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:56 AM

People got raped by KFC for 6 months, even though the enemy team ate every single trap , due to hunter short cc into hoj, rep, blind. It was okay doing it to people who sit there helplessly. Suddenly psychic scream is a problematic concept because people use it as a follow up to hunter cc? And tremor should not be nerfed because of that?
Stop being fucking hypocrites, it's disgusting. You guys played KFC for 6 months, and it was ok doing same thing, probably the worse with stampede, tfb to other people.
Fear is not a priest only ability, tremor totem hurts locks and warriors too. And not every single priest plays or wants to play a hunter cleave I don't know how many times I will have to write this for some people to actually process it. When you are not carried by the retarded hunter cc , the comp relies on your fear, but the enemy team is immune to it, and this is a problem.
And the healer with offensive dispel, defensive dispel, decurse and aoe freedom totem does not need fear immunity.

Edited by Djandawg, 24 April 2013 - 01:57 AM.


#174 Korzul

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:04 AM

Quote

People got raped by KFC for 6 months, even though the enemy team ate every single trap , due to hunter short cc into hoj, rep, blind.

Blinding light got changed and you could interupt a rep cast plus mass dispel hadn't just been gutted. Also as you said people got "raped" by it for 6 months. You still need to explain how you stop the invis'd up priest landing the follow up fear.

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:06 AM

View PostDjandawg, on 24 April 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

People got raped by KFC for 6 months, even though the enemy team ate every single trap , due to hunter short cc into hoj, rep, blind. It was okay doing it to people who sit there helplessly. Suddenly psychic scream is a problematic concept because people use it as a follow up to hunter cc? And tremor should not be nerfed because of that?
Stop being fucking hypocrites, it's disgusting. You guys played KFC for 6 months, and it was ok doing same thing, probably the worse with stampede, tfb to other people.
Fear is not a priest only ability, tremor totem hurts locks and warriors too. And not every single priest plays or wants to play a hunter cleave I don't know how many times I will have to write this for some people to actually process it. When you are not carried by the retarded hunter cc , the comp relies on your fear, but the enemy team is immune to it, and this is a problem.
And the healer with offensive dispel, defensive dispel, decurse and aoe freedom totem does not need fear immunity.

Paladin cc was nerfed if you recall. Like I said though, Psychic scream by itself isnt neccessarily a problem, but EVERY team has tons of instant cc, and that makes psychic scream an unavoidable problem. It's something that has always been a problem in super heavy cc comps. by itself it isn't difficult to avoid, but in the current game it is an issue. It would be better if they nerfed all the stupid fucking instant cc from hunters/monks/exc, but it would be an easier and quicker fix to disc/hunter/x dominance to just nerf fear

#176 dionim

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:25 AM

had to post again, sry

A CLASS BEING STRONG IS NOT A EXCUSE FOR HAVING A BROKEN SPELL
FOCUS ON WHAT IS STRONG/WEAK TO NERF/BUFF AND REMOVE BROKEN SHIT FROM THE GAME.


View PostRadejjj, on 24 April 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Paladin cc was nerfed if you recall. Like I said though, Psychic scream by itself isnt neccessarily a problem, but EVERY team has tons of instant cc, and that makes psychic scream an unavoidable problem. It's something that has always been a problem in super heavy cc comps. by itself it isn't difficult to avoid, but in the current game it is an issue. It would be better if they nerfed all the stupid fucking instant cc from hunters/monks/exc, but it would be an easier and quicker fix to disc/hunter/x dominance to just nerf fear

this whole post is the most retarted stuff i have ever read, HEHEHE XXXXXX IS TO OP, LETS NERF THE YYYYYY

think about it, mages have the same amount/type of cc a hunter have, why mage disc isnt OP ?

disc had all this you cry about since MOP, and fear since dinosaurs, i dont think they changed any stuff you guys call op since mop release when priests were shit, what happened? why it become so op?

Edited by dionim, 24 April 2013 - 02:28 AM.


#177 Avarencex

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:35 AM

Imo hunter cc needs to be nerfed in these disc/hunter/x scenarios. but that's just me

Edited by Avarencex, 24 April 2013 - 02:36 AM.


#178 dionim

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:39 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 24 April 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

I PLAY THE BEST HEALER PLZ DONT NERF ME NERF EVERYONE ELSE IVE HAD FEAR FOREVER IT CANT BE OP

nice answer, just like the previous one

just to increase you knowledge, blizz buffed healing/survival, aside from psyfiend the class is in a really good spot, and the most balanced one together with druids (IN MY OPNION)

it doesnt change the fact that pallys need buffs, and shamans need little buffs together with tremor fix.

think about what you said, if you nerf fear, what does priest have? i dont want to be op, nerf other stuff, but disc w/o fear, would be the most boring class in the game

edit. lulaby having dr with fear would be a good start

other idea mr.pally, fear 1 min cd, a talent replacing psyfiend reduce its cd by 30seconds, turn it into a single target spell, and increase the range by 30yards (just like HoJ talented) i bet you would cry even more than now hehe

Edited by dionim, 24 April 2013 - 02:44 AM.


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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:40 AM

View PostAvarencex, on 24 April 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Imo hunter cc needs to be nerfed in these disc/hunter/x scenarios. but that's just me

Hunter cc absolutely needs to be nerfed but apparently blizzard is content with it at this point. In general though, i think it would be an easier fix to nerf fear rather then nerf everyones instant cc. All the stupid instant cc should be nerfed, it would be better, but its not going to happen. Theyre not going to nerf monks, ferals, hunters, mages, rogues, rets, and everyone else with short cd instant cc that priests fear off of. It would just be easier to nerf fear, regardless of whether or not thats that best/right thing to nerf

View Postdionim, on 24 April 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

nice answer, just like the previous one

just to increase you knowledge, blizz buffed healing/survival, aside from psyfiend the class is in a really good spot, and the most balanced one together with druids (IN MY OPNION)

it doesnt change the fact that pallys need buffs, and shamans need little buffs together with tremor fix.

think about what you said, if you nerf fear, what does priest have? i dont want to be op, nerf other stuff, but disc w/o fear, would be the boring class in the game

edit. lulaby having dr with fear would be a good start

i actually think disc is one of the most balanced specs in the game, but priest/hunter/x is fucking retarded right now and something needs to be nerfed. Lulluby and fear dring wouldnt be a bad place to start, but I still think invis/sprint shouldn't be in the same talent tier.

Edited by Radejjj, 24 April 2013 - 02:42 AM.


#180

  • Junkies
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Talents: Holy 0/0/1/2/2/0
  • RBG: 384

Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:46 AM

View Postdionim, on 24 April 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

other idea mr.pally, fear 1 min cd, a talent replacing psyfiend reduce its cd by 30seconds, turn it into a single target spell, and increase the range by 30yards (just like HoJ talented) i bet you would cry even more than now hehe

Yeah a 30 second cd blind seems balanced

Edited by Radejjj, 24 April 2013 - 02:46 AM.





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