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#61 moojerk

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

Someone should create an addon that tracks how many seconds you are CC'd in an arena VS the length of the arena match.  I'd be curious to see what percentage of time (especially healers) are sitting in CC.

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:11 PM

tbh back in wotlk the cc was more cuz it was faster because of haste+ blind ,fear , poly lasting 10 secs instead of 8 .People seem to have 4gotten the 0.5 cast time poly and 1 sec fears , or lsd , not being able to play the game ever.

#63 Hackattack3

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

View Postmoojerk, on 19 April 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Someone should create an addon that tracks how many seconds you are CC'd in an arena VS the length of the arena match.  I'd be curious to see what percentage of time (especially healers) are sitting in CC.

^This,

It's harder and harder to tell the good from bad healers b/c they are afk for more than 50% of the game.

I remember when Wotlk was all about finding a "pro" healer that could juke and ride pillars.  Now it seems like the 3s comps are carried by dps classes pulling off successful cc chains.

#64 Vadren

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

I don't feel like I spend more time CC'd now than in cata/wotlk/tbc against CC heavy teams because CC's used to last longer (I think in TBC it was 12, and as someone said 10 in wotlk), not all healers had dispel, and there were fewer CC breaks. All this contributed to spending more time in CC. As a paladin in TBC you simply didn't get to play the game if a warlock was on the other team.

I think the biggest issues are too many instant and ranged cc's that either can't be dispelled, prevented or it's unrealistic to prevent them. Especially stuns.
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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:24 PM

View PostVadren, on 19 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't feel like I spend more time CC'd now than in cata/wotlk/tbc against CC heavy teams because CC's used to last longer (I think in TBC it was 12, and as someone said 10 in wotlk), not all healers had dispel, and there were fewer CC breaks. All this contributed to spending more time in CC. As a paladin in TBC you simply didn't get to play the game if a warlock was on the other team.

I think the biggest issues are too many instant and ranged cc's that either can't be dispelled, prevented or it's unrealistic to prevent them. Especially stuns.
exactly! god how can ppl compare mop cc with wrath cc?clueless

#66 moojerk

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:50 PM

Just looking at some video footage of S7 S8 wrath, I spend a lot more time CC'd in MOP than I did in wrath.  /shrug

#67 Violatrix

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

View Postsamuser1234, on 19 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Wana play against 3 DPS who can't be peeled with all their CDs up?

Like... .3 dancing rogues with Sblades?

Hope you have bubble.

The flip side, of course, is that teams facing trip deeps would have the same post-trinket immunity, so a healer could pop all of his/her healing CDs without the "JK inner focus stunned" that happens now.  It almost seems pointless to equip a trinket that--against many comps--you simply cannot use because once it is popped, you get switched to and blown up.

Edited by Violatrix, 19 April 2013 - 09:20 PM.

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#68 Hackattack3

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

View PostVadren, on 19 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't feel like I spend more time CC'd now than in cata/wotlk/tbc against CC heavy teams because CC's used to last longer (I think in TBC it was 12, and as someone said 10 in wotlk), not all healers had dispel, and there were fewer CC breaks. All this contributed to spending more time in CC. As a paladin in TBC you simply didn't get to play the game if a warlock was on the other team.

I think the biggest issues are too many instant and ranged cc's that either can't be dispelled, prevented or it's unrealistic to prevent them. Especially stuns.

Dps spent more time in cc when partnered with a non-dispelling healer.  Healers definitely spend more time in cc now than ever due to instants being easy to land.

lock vs pal matchup in tbc was broken and pals sat in fear most of the time.

#69 Hackattack3

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostViolatrix, on 19 April 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

The flip side, of course, is that teams facing trip deeps would have the same post-trinket immunity, so a healer could pop all of his/her healing CDs without the "JK inner focus stunned" that happens now.  It almost seems pointless to equip a trinket that--against many comps--you simply cannot use because once it is popped, you get switched to and blown up.

Agreed,

Felt the same was last season vs KFC, you are eating an endless sea of 4-5 sec stuns, which to trinket?  You knew you were going ot get stunned/silence right again after.

#70 Unappealing

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:21 PM

if you nerf cc, you have to nerf healing, if you nerf healing you have to nerf damage, if you nerf damage you have to buff cc, if you buff cc you have to buff healing, if you buff healing you have to buff damage, ect ect ect.
against good teams in any expac you were cced for a long time, but it was more avoidable, people need a play style change now, blizzard won't change it.

#71 Flabbert

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:06 PM

View PostUnappealing, on 19 April 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

if you nerf cc, you have to nerf healing, if you nerf healing you have to nerf damage, if you nerf damage you have to buff cc, if you buff cc you have to buff healing, if you buff healing you have to buff damage, ect ect ect.
against good teams in any expac you were cced for a long time, but it was more avoidable, people need a play style change now, blizzard won't change it.

ppl die in a blanket silence so i dont think you really have to nerf healing when they nerf cc.
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#72 Violatrix

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:00 AM

View PostUnappealing, on 19 April 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

if you nerf cc, you have to nerf healing, if you nerf healing you have to nerf damage, if you nerf damage you have to buff cc, if you buff cc you have to buff healing, if you buff healing you have to buff damage, ect ect ect.
against good teams in any expac you were cced for a long time, but it was more avoidable, people need a play style change now, blizzard won't change it.

I respectfully disagree with the first part of your post.  I think your statement is true if we want to keep the length of arena matches relatively short, as they are now; however, if CC is nerfed while healing remains as-is--and especially if burst is ever-so-slightly toned down while sustained damage is raised--we will have slightly longer games where mana and positioning become a pivotal factor again.  

I do agree that a play style change is called for, and many of us are loathe to change.  It is a game, and it behooves us to play the game as it is now rather than as we wish it to be.

The down side to my idea of toning down burst while nerfing CC will be those games where two players are left standing, a healer and a dps, on each team.  We have all played against the "try hards" who have been beaten but want to try to make it to the match limit by running away and surviving.  $#@! that irritates me.

Edited by Violatrix, 20 April 2013 - 10:27 PM.

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#73 Hackattack3

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

View PostUnappealing, on 19 April 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

if you nerf cc, you have to nerf healing, if you nerf healing you have to nerf damage, if you nerf damage you have to buff cc, if you buff cc you have to buff healing, if you buff healing you have to buff damage, ect ect ect.
against good teams in any expac you were cced for a long time, but it was more avoidable, people need a play style change now, blizzard won't change it.

If you nerf cc you can either nerf healing (where it will take a few casts to top someone off) or nerf healer mana regen.  If my 3s team is doing 2x the damage of the other team, their healer should run OOM.  That thought process and style doesn't really exist anymore.

For a game to "time out", it should take each team coordinating several full drinks via tbc style.

#74 Nightmonkey

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

View PostVadren, on 19 April 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I think the biggest issues are too many instant and ranged cc's that either can't be dispelled, prevented or it's unrealistic to prevent them. Especially stuns.

This is definitely true.

There may not actually be more CC's on paper than there were in the past, but the problem is that they gave some formerly spec exclusive CC to every spec of a class if they want it.  Repentance and Shockwave are two that come to mind.

Another problem is that they gave some classes more frequent access to their CC.  Kind of picking on Rogues here since they are the worst and most obvious offender.  Used to be you would only get garroted if they got a restealth or a vanish, now they can use it every minute.  Not only that, but they get to use 3 of their stealth only abilities every time they get into stealth.  If that wasn't good enough, these abilities effectively have no positional requirement thanks to cloak and dagger.

The thing that irritates me most about CC is that as a Healer, I will often just be spammed with half or quarter duration CC's that often times are overlapped from two different players.  Sometimes they will take me to full immune on one DR, but it prevents me from casting long enough sometimes to land a kill or hold me in place long enough for a third player to land a CC on me.

Maybe they could alleviate this through making CC DR faster, instead of the first one being 50% shorter, make it 75% shorter and the third one just immune.  Often times I find that I can sit the first full duration, but by the time I get to the 1 second duration stun/silence from the third one in a row I'm really in deep shit and have to trinket or bubble or die.  If you just trinket the first one, that opens up an entirely different can of worms and often isn't even very helpful.

On the topic of Ret/Hunter/Priest, the thing I find most obnoxious about this comp is that none of their CC is casted and it is all very easy to land.

#75 fant0m8

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:23 PM

No one dies through healing right now, CC is necessary.

If you could kill people without the healer being CCed from 100->0 then you can nerf CC, but that requires a big change to the way the game works currently.


Most teams have 2-3 massive defensive cooldowns (or more) that you can't kill through if the enemy is competent. The only way to force those cooldowns in most cases (let's leave out that ridiculous PVE trinket - it's already getting nerfed twice) is to CC the healer. If you don't get through all of those cooldowns, no one is going to die (unless they're just THAT bad).

So unless you want to go back to mana wars, most of the CC in this game needs to stay. One area that I could definitely see getting toned down is instant CC that doesn't break on damage (stuns/silences/etc). I think that unless healers/defensive cooldowns get massively nerfed (all classes), you can't nerf the CC that breaks on damage.

Edited by fant0m8, 23 April 2013 - 10:24 PM.

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#76 Toitles

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:42 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 23 April 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

No one dies through healing right now, CC is necessary.
Idk about right now but on the PTR my team's warrior died to TSG through all of his defensive cooldowns plus NS and healing tide from our shaman.  Spirit link would've probably saved him, but it was hilarious.

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#77 Salutations

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:51 AM

:) nvm

#78 Domesauce

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:54 PM

Attacking these massive categories like CC or DR is not going to accomplish anything. You need to look at the individual classes and abilities that are broken. This thread doesn't paint CC as being too strong, it makes it sound like hunters/rogues/psyfiend are fucking retarded.

Edited by Domesauce, 24 April 2013 - 12:55 PM.


#79 hekumzx

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostDomesauce, on 24 April 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Attacking these massive categories like CC or DR is not going to accomplish anything. You need to look at the individual classes and abilities that are broken. This thread doesn't paint CC as being too strong, it makes it sound like hunters/rogues/psyfiend are fucking retarded.

While I agree that those abilities are ridiculous, changing DR would make a difference.  For example, hunters shouldn't have three four different categories of CC to work with, not including root.

Cloak and dagger may be dumb but it is interesting and skillful if used right, the changes to rogue that would satisfy the majority of arena players would simply tone find weakness down.  I'm pretty sure that after three expansions, blizzard should understand that armor pen eventually leads to bullshit balance issues.

The reason that CC or DR needs some type of change is because of the progression of the game, not because of the classes or the duration.  If you have played SC2 or HON, etc you understand meta game.  The meta game has shifted drastically from Wrath to MOP, it went south in my opinion in Cata simply because of the introduction of homogenization on a somewhat global scale.  This expansion it is completely absurd.  While Wrath CC was longer, there was less of it.  Meaning you couldn't often CC a healer for X time, CC and off dps for half that time and stun the kill target for the same duration.  Wrath CC was casted, meaning you lost, in some cases, two seconds of hitting someone while casting the CC as well as having to cast the damage, even if you had bloodlusted haste from gear.  

Now you can Instant CC a healer for Wrath casted duration.  You can instant CC another player for half that duration and stun the third target for kill for the same duration, all in the same global, and pop cooldowns that do instant damage in the next global that do the same damage as two fully geared casters casting into a deep freeze for 5 seconds in Wrath.

Anybody who plays arena regularly can consider their class and the game objectively and come to terms with the fact that the game is pretty shit cake at the moment, we all play it, most of us bitch but in the end, we simply hope that blizzard reads/cares about SOME AJ posts and eventually moves in a direction that resembles balance, even slightly, so that we can enjoy arena for the last year or two that WOW has left.

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#80 fant0m8

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:38 AM

Having 3 different DR CCs means nothing in itself. You are conveniently leaving out the fact that the duration of all but 1 of the CCs are 4 seconds or less.


Fear or Poly by itself is 14 seconds of CC, without talking about the CC on different DRs that those classes have (like death/mortal coil, deep freeze, counter spells/silences, and disorient if fire).

And that doesn't even get into the 20 yard range of scatter. Honestly most healers in this game have really shit positioning, and no awareness of where I'm at. If they were paying attention to me they could easily see when I need to trap and avoid it. The pet CC also has shit range. No sympathy for bad players.

Even with that, you all will argue that Hunter CC is easy to get off. Well then why aren't you proposing methods of making it harder to get off? Stop being bad and reacting to the wrong thing (DR categories, number of spells) and go after what you are *really* complaining about, the ease of getting the spells off.
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