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Glyph of Garrote and Glyph of Cheap Shot nerfed


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#61 Hyuru

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

View Posthid, on 16 April 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

I question your assessment that "most rogues" agree with you on this. I for one strongly disagree, and while I've played rogue since vanilla and managed just fine in 95% of cases to pull off proper openers without subterfuge, without that talent we're still the most inconsistent class.

Getting randomly knocked out of stealth can put you way behind before the game even begins. Keep in mind that every class has gotten access to more and better(bigger radius/passive) aoe abilities to knock people out. In the current game just removing subterfuge without giving us another way to get successful openers would make the class very hard to balance (ie, inconsistent.)

Of course there will always be people complaining about abilities they find annoying, and trust me I can list things from every class that is at least on par with subterfuge in the "annoying" aspect.

Subterfuge and C&D isn't OP. Accept it, adjust your play to be more defensive during openers vs rogue teams, and I can't emphasize this enough, PAY ATTENTION TO THE DAMN GAME AND STOP LETTING ROGUES GET FREE RESTEALTHS OFF. You have no idea how incredibly simple it is to get restealths atm without people even trying to stop you if you know what you're doing (and pretty much 90%+ of all restealths I ever get could be prevented or taken huge advantage of by the opposing team if they knew what they were doing.)
i was more thinking about the fact that you stay stealthed for 3 seconds after opening, maybe a rework of the talent is something that could be done?

like you stay stealthed for 3 seconds after taking dmg, but if you open you instantly get de-stealthed?

i dont know, i just feel the talent is kind of stupid and overpowered, we got a "noob friendly" vanish in cata aswell.

#62 Conviqx

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

View Posthid, on 16 April 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

PAY ATTENTION TO THE DAMN GAME AND STOP LETTING ROGUES GET FREE RESTEALTHS OFF. You have no idea how incredibly simple it is to get restealths atm without people even trying to stop you if you know what you're doing (and pretty much 90%+ of all restealths I ever get could be prevented or taken huge advantage of by the opposing team if they knew what they were doing.)

exactly
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#63 hid

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostHyuru, on 16 April 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

i was more thinking about the fact that you stay stealthed for 3 seconds after opening, maybe a rework of the talent is something that could be done?

like you stay stealthed for 3 seconds after taking dmg, but if you open you instantly get de-stealthed?

i dont know, i just feel the talent is kind of stupid and overpowered, we got a "noob friendly" vanish in cata aswell.

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I just don't see the need to do that. Subterfuge is a fun talent, it makes you feel powerful without being OP, people can still aoe cc you or simply cc the other dps on your team when the rogue opens. I just don't see a need to nerf it in any way. subterfuge and C&D is probably the biggest reason I'm once again truly having fun on my rogue, for the first time in a few years.

I guess we simply fundamentally disagree on what needs to be changed with the class, none of us can really call the other person "wrong", it's pretty subjective because I hope we can at least agree that even if subterfuge/C&D actually turns out to be OP (hypothetically speaking), it certainly can't be called blatantly/stupidly OP, like some of the more obvious OP stuff. If anything it's an annoyance for other players, but loaaaaaads of abilities of all classes can be called very strong/annoying without actually being OP.

Edit: Obviously you could call me biased because I do admit that I really enjoy these talents (and this is coming from a person who has played rogue since US alpha, I do not like it because it's "dumbed down" or whatever, I simply believe it's good design/good flavour for the class), but whenever I speak about balance I do try my best to be as objective as I can.

Edited by hid, 16 April 2013 - 04:41 PM.


#64 Braindance

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:43 PM

View Posthid, on 16 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I just don't see the need to do that. Subterfuge is a fun talent, it makes you feel powerful without being OP, people can still aoe cc you or simply cc the other dps on your team when the rogue opens. I just don't see a need to nerf it in any way. subterfuge and C&D is probably the biggest reason I'm once again truly having fun on my rogue, for the first time in a few years.

I guess we simply fundamentally disagree on what needs to be changed with the class, none of us can really call the other person "wrong", it's pretty subjective because I hope we can at least agree that even if subterfuge/C&D actually turns out to be OP (hypothetically speaking), it certainly can't be called blatantly/stupidly OP, like some of the more obvious OP stuff. If anything it's an annoyance for other players, but loaaaaaads of abilities of all classes can be called very strong/annoying without actually being OP.
I hope you understand that being able to COMPLETELY nullify ANY class in the opener (cheap+garrote) is something that might seem fun to you, but it's overpowered correct?

Care to enumerate some more obvious OP stuff?

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#65 averuki

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:52 PM

ok so if you are saying that its not worth it to do dred garrote and cheap shot and it takes so much energy that you dont do damage after using them. lets put garrote and cheap shot on 5 sec cd

#66 Numbtoes

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:01 PM

View Posthid, on 16 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yeah I get what you're saying, but I just don't see the need to do that. Subterfuge is a fun talent, it makes you feel powerful without being OP, people can still aoe cc you or simply cc the other dps on your team when the rogue opens. I just don't see a need to nerf it in any way. subterfuge and C&D is probably the biggest reason I'm once again truly having fun on my rogue, for the first time in a few years.

I guess we simply fundamentally disagree on what needs to be changed with the class, none of us can really call the other person "wrong", it's pretty subjective because I hope we can at least agree that even if subterfuge/C&D actually turns out to be OP (hypothetically speaking), it certainly can't be called blatantly/stupidly OP, like some of the more obvious OP stuff. If anything it's an annoyance for other players, but loaaaaaads of abilities of all classes can be called very strong/annoying without actually being OP.

Edit: Obviously you could call me biased because I do admit that I really enjoy these talents (and this is coming from a person who has played rogue since US alpha, I do not like it because it's "dumbed down" or whatever, I simply believe it's good design/good flavour for the class), but whenever I speak about balance I do try my best to be as objective as I can.
Tbh, I find the defensive capabilities of suberterfuge to be more strong than offensive. If the rogue manages to get a restealth or vansishes he can stop a teams pressure alone by with a cheap on healer melee and a garrote on a caster. I don't know if it would be to big of a nerf, but what if CnD didn't apply to the subterfuge stealth after your first opener. So then for your initial opener CnD would apply but after the cheap/garrote you would still be in stealth but you couldn't port around.

#67 Ayume

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:44 PM

You can take subterfuge, cheapshot glyph, garrote glyph, and increase the energy cost of ambush during dance, and even remove shuriken toss. But please, please, give rogues a way to live a single stun. I cannot count the number of times I've feinted or pre walled(and partially stacked) a stun and died 100-0 in a blanket on my healer. What rogues need is less burst, more sustain and more survivability.
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#68 ohnoes

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:51 PM

View PostAyume, on 16 April 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

You can take subterfuge, cheapshot glyph, garrote glyph, and increase the energy cost of ambush during dance, and even remove shuriken toss. But please, please, give rogues a way to live a single stun. I cannot count the number of times I've feinted or pre walled(and partially stacked) a stun and died 100-0 in a blanket on my healer. What rogues need is less burst, more sustain and more survivability.

this

#69 samuser1234

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

Stealth should have the subterfuge effect baked into it "Stay in stealth for 3 seconds after taking damage", and then the stealth breaks if we do any damage/openers. Then with the talent being chosen to allow the use of openers for the full 3 seconds, then i could take my shadow focus talent back for some comps without worrying about map wide AoE spam and dots tabbed on by a healer (34 second(?) flame shock, wtf) keeping me from getting any profit from pulling off a restealth.

Edited by samuser1234, 16 April 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#70 Oliaxz

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:53 PM

the fix to rogue is : shadowstep + cnd effect only during dance
make it happen with glyph, talent or spec/baseline w/e, and dont touch subterfuge. that fix the Restealth op problem

make honor among thieve not work for ownself, reduce hemo cost to 20 energy, remove the shit dot, make backstab cost 40 energy and generate 2 cp like ambush during dance. Its just very stupid how right now our combo generation is so random, teamate crit or not, we crit or not, shadowblades ambush crit 4 cp lolololz?

also ye dieing in a 4s stun vs 1 dps is lame. Maybe give us smth like extra 20% damage reduction when stun below 35% hp and attack that take you below 35% reduced by 20% still only when stun. all talent free ofc, or make elusivness baseline. stack with feint ofc

Edited by Oliaxz, 16 April 2013 - 11:29 PM.


#71 djp771133

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:25 PM

plz delete subterfuge and cheapshot+garrote glyphs.  Then make feint like 15% and make it last like 15 seconds maybe?  Not really sure, but rogues surv vs melee kind of sucks

#72 wtfbro

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:28 AM

didn't read all the thread so i'll just say my thoughts: what if they put cheapshot/garrote on a 3/4 second cd and if used with dance make them have no cd? wouldn't that prevent rogues from locking down the whole team abusing subterfuge?
or they could just remove cloak and dagger already :ph34r:

Edited by wtfbro, 17 April 2013 - 12:28 AM.


#73 Lieto

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:43 PM

Quote

and tbh, I think most rogues agree that subterfuge is kind of stupid and should be removed from the game, but why on earth would we not abuse it when it's available to us?
I disagree. For once i actually feel like a rogue and not some warrior with daggers.
I mean it actually feels like you are doing something out of stealth and not just open then run around unstealthed for 30 minutes bashing things. Stealth should be a part of our gameplay and not just something that you use before combat starts to land occasional sap. (i remember when sap was a "great" cc in like tbc when everyone could fart while you vanish and instantly get you out of stealth for the lulz)
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#74 bouncyballs

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

In my opinion, subterfuge  shouldn't allow the rogue to stay in stealth, instead it should break the rogue out of stealth but allow them to use abilities as if they were stealthed, like a mini shadowdance.
I just hate not being able to target the rogue while they are dpsing me its the dumbest thing ever.

#75 Conviqx

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

Last patch shadow focus was actually really nice, u could sap and open instantly after that without losing energy, which gives u a pretty strong opener to. having a 100% 6s stealth with vanish is also pretty silly, having 3s of grace period when knocked out is also pretty dumb, shouldn't be that long or at all
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#76 Filthpig

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:51 PM

Remove mass concealment. Rogues fixed.

#77 deprivelol

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:56 PM

nerf aoe stealth

#78 Eveny

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostFilthpig, on 17 April 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Remove mass concealment. Rogues fixed.

Yup thats the rogue issue clearly...
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#79 samuser1234

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

Still not sure why shadow focus was nerfed to bring it in line with subterfuge, since cloak and dagger pulled subterfuge Way ahead of pre-nerf shadowfocus.
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#80 Doomnatrah

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

it seems to me, the mixed feelings about rogues strength depends entirely on the class/spec you play.  Many rogues are complaining that they die in stuns even with wall and feint up.  Guess what, so does every spec/class without a damage immunity.  At least most sane people can agree that many of the abilities in the rogues toolkit are completely over powered and especially vs casters.  The problem it seems is that rogues keep getting shiny new things to control casters and very little to deal with melee damage.

It would be a nice trade off if rogues would lose some caster control in favor of melee survivability.




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