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#21 Pritchard

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:56 PM

thats still ridiculous, you shouldn't be able to do that what, 1 minute into a game just ramboing by yourself?  I've killed people just because of deep blanket, with all instant casts.  If you don't get major cooldowns every time you deep, and especially deep orb, you aren't playing right.

and yea you can solo someone with 100% instants if you are nt spec, and you can solo someone as frost bomb by chaining instants after getting the bomb off.

its silly, and its not even fun to play as a mage, or against a mage unless you are a fan of one shotting ppl because "lol they n00bz so eez to not get 1 shot by mage"

#22 Harlemshake

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostNitric, on 14 April 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

so you're saying that's balanced then

ok
the mage pops incanters, the boomkin helpfully dots him immediately to break it, they both then ignore the mage to go pve damage mode into the spriest, the mage pops every cooldown including two 3 min cooldowns and 1 1.5 min cooldown on the shaman 1v1, the shaman doesnt use anything, the shamans team mates dont use anything, and the shaman dies.

im not saying its fine, but people act like mages do this to healers every 30 seconds while being trained

#23 Harlemshake

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

View Posthairpiece, on 14 April 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

thats still ridiculous, you shouldn't be able to do that what, 1 minute into a game just ramboing by yourself?  I've killed people just because of deep blanket, with all instant casts.  If you don't get major cooldowns every time you deep, and especially deep orb, you aren't playing right.

and yea you can solo someone with 100% instants if you are nt spec, and you can solo someone as frost bomb by chaining instants after getting the bomb off.

its silly, and its not even fun to play as a mage, or against a mage unless you are a fan of one shotting ppl because "lol they n00bz so eez to not get 1 shot by mage"
if a rogue pops every cooldown on our disc priest, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if a warrior does the same, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if an enhancement shaman/hunter/spriest/boomkin/death knight does that, and we dont peel or he uses at least a few cooldowns, he dies.

regardless of how broken incanters ward + on use trinket + orc racial + using every single cooldown makes our damage, linking that vod as a demonstration of why mages are broken doesnt really prove shit in the current state of the game

#24 djp771133

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostHarlemshake, on 14 April 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

if a rogue pops every cooldown on our disc priest, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if a warrior does the same, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if an enhancement shaman/hunter/spriest/boomkin/death knight does that, and we dont peel or he uses at least a few cooldowns, he dies.

regardless of how broken incanters ward + on use trinket + orc racial + using every single cooldown makes our damage, linking that vod as a demonstration of why mages are broken doesnt really prove shit in the current state of the game

You honestly can't be serious.  The argument you are making is like the same as me making an argument for the old 5 stack taste for blood.  One class shouldn't completely solo someone in like 5 seconds just because they get procs or whatever.  There is so little counter play to a mage deeping you, putting and orb that ticks for 20k, spamming instant 50k ice lances, in addition to ffb procs etc.  Mages can seriously do 200k+ damage in under 5 seconds by themselves with 100% instant casts.

Edited by djp771133, 14 April 2013 - 11:11 PM.


#25 Pritchard

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:24 PM

I can do damage just fine being trained as a mage, all I have to do is go nether tempest and never cast and do more overall damage than frost bomb spec, with just as much if not more burst depending on ffb proc luck.  The fact that it is even an option for a mage to run in and pop everything right off the bat and win is disgusting.  Yes, you can help out and peel it, but if you get cross cc'd, or he happens to blink behind a pillar with deep up and you can't help peel, you shouldn't be guaranteed dead because someone decided to mash their keyboard.   There is no setup to our damage right now, and its all way too high anyways, even WITHOUT damage boosts such as incanters.

#26 Qtpai

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:32 PM

nerf mages they 1 shot everything

#27 Harlemshake

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:36 PM

View Posthairpiece, on 14 April 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

you shouldn't be guaranteed dead because someone decided to mash their keyboard
made me smile, welcome to arena since tbc

damage from almost every class is too high right now if they pop every single cooldown and have all procs + on use trinket up, that is the main issue they should look at if they are going to look at everything, but its probably pointless mentioning it in this thread since it will get swamped in a sea of mage hate

Edited by Harlemshake, 14 April 2013 - 11:39 PM.


#28 Pritchard

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:44 PM

View PostHarlemshake, on 14 April 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

made me smile, welcome to arena since tbc


even people who play mages including myself realizes how beyond stupid they are, if you honestly think things like what watchmeblink does are a non issue, i'm not sure what to tell you.  Especially when blizzard cares a lot about lower rated players, and lower rated players may not be able to perfectly counter this every single time, as there are a lot of high rated players who can't even counter it all the time.

Think outside the box and realize that mages need some serious changes.

#29 Braindance

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:46 PM

View PostHarlemshake, on 14 April 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

if a rogue pops every cooldown on our disc priest, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if a warrior does the same, either we peel him or he uses a cooldown or he dies
if an enhancement shaman/hunter/spriest/boomkin/death knight does that, and we dont peel or he uses at least a few cooldowns, he dies.

regardless of how broken incanters ward + on use trinket + orc racial + using every single cooldown makes our damage, linking that vod as a demonstration of why mages are broken doesnt really prove shit in the current state of the game
With the major difference that what you call cds have 1+ minute cooldown compared to no cooldown. On the other hand mage burst is completely unpredictable due to procs. The only thing you know vs mages is that every 30 seconds you have to pray to all the gods known to humanity, hoping that you survive.

Mages easily have easily the best burst in the game now, requiring 0 setup, 0 resources, 0 brain cells. I simply don't understand why you must do damage comparable to a rogue using shadowblades/dance the entire game. And the most outrageous thing is that it's mostly instants - frostbolt is just icing on the cake if you manage to cast it.

tl;dr: Every class needs dps cds to force def cds. Mages need no dps cds to force def cds - they randomly force them every time they get procs (very frequently)

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#30 Evolute

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:46 PM

didn't they almost put in a change that made it so that deep didn't count toward shatter

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#31 Marshmellow

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:50 PM

View PostEvolute, on 14 April 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

didn't they almost put in a change that made it so that deep didn't count toward shatter

They were going to make deep break on damaging spells that benefit from shatter
My sig broke forum rules as it was over 250kb in size.

#32 Pigboy

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:01 AM

View PostBraindance, on 14 April 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

With the major difference that what you call cds have 1+ minute cooldown compared to no cooldown.

Pretty sure the mage popped his 3 minute CD, got incanters ward,1 minute Frozen Orb, and on-use. If shaman didn't get peeled or trinketed then of course he's going to die, just like to any class that popped every CD in the game. What else is he gonna trinket within the 2 minutes? You cant die solo from a mage that doesn't pop their major cooldowns, you only drop to 30-40% if unpeeled depending on the rng of the crits. The thing about mage damage is its really predictable and can be stopped pretty easily by a good team, the reason low levels complain about it so much is they aren't very aware of class mechanics and what is happening in games.

#33 Justwoo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:02 AM

View PostPigboy, on 15 April 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:


Pretty sure the mage popped his 3 minute CD, got incanters ward,1 minute Frozen Orb, and on-use. If shaman didn't get peeled or trinketed then of course he's going to die, just like to any class that popped every CD in the game. What else is he gonna trinket within the 2 minutes? You cant die solo from a mage that doesn't pop their major cooldowns, you only drop to 30-40% if unpeeled depending on the rng of the crits. The thing about mage damage is its really predictable and can be stopped pretty easily by a good team, the reason low levels complain about it so much is they aren't very aware of class mechanics and what is happening in games.

well said m8

Edited by Justwoo, 15 April 2013 - 12:02 AM.

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#34 Braindance

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:08 AM

View PostPigboy, on 15 April 2013 - 12:01 AM, said:

Pretty sure the mage popped his 3 minute CD, got incanters ward,1 minute Frozen Orb, and on-use. If shaman didn't get peeled or trinketed then of course he's going to die, just like to any class that popped every CD in the game. What else is he gonna trinket within the 2 minutes? You cant die solo from a mage that doesn't pop their major cooldowns, you only drop to 30-40% if unpeeled depending on the rng of the crits. The thing about mage damage is its really predictable and can be stopped pretty easily by a good team, the reason low levels complain about it so much is they aren't very aware of class mechanics and what is happening in games.
No my friend - the damage isn't predictable. We are not talking about low level complaints here. As I said, even without all the stuff you enumerate mage damage is just too high. It saddens me to see that top mages have degraded their playstyle to s6 tsg. I was watching Watchmeblink's stream yesterday (and I am sure that he is a very good mage). At roughly 2.4k mmr he completely disregarded his positioning, peeling for his teammates and fakecasting (I am not talking about a single game) - only thing he did was pick a target and spam damage. He was randomly hitting anything in LoS even when his partner was hitting something else. 0 coordination, 0 awareness and they still kept winning games. Why? Because more skillful play right now is not as effective. Again, I am confident that he is an excellent mage, but the current playstyle allows him to just turret damage and do literally nothing else (while still remaining effective).

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#35 Braindance

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostHarlemshake, on 15 April 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

and this is where i give up arguing
There is no argument to be made here - mage damage is too high. Every high caliber mage admits it and so does Holinka. No point arguing over the truth.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#36 Crawthz

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:27 AM

Because current gameplay is all about turreting damage in short duration and the running around a pillar untill turreting damage is an option again. This is every classes and specs way of playing (not UH DK). And it's the most effective way of playing. I've done so many 100-0 this season that it's not even funny. And most of them are into Petnova only without any +dmg modifiers.

That VoD about Watchmeblink soloing a rshaman is not anything special. Every class can do that in 6-8seconds if they pop everything and you don't peel at all or use cd's yourself. Just trinketing the deep and healing stream totem even and he would have not died.

CD for a CD.. Don't forget that.

Edited by Crawthz, 15 April 2013 - 12:29 AM.

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#37 Harlemshake

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:27 AM

View PostBraindance, on 15 April 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

There is no argument to be made here - mage damage is too high. Every high caliber mage admits it and so does Holinka. No point arguing over the truth.
and yet im still glad that he is in control of game design and not you

#38 Braindance

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:30 AM

View PostHarlemshake, on 15 April 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

and yet im still glad that he is in control of game design and not you
Then you will be sad to know that he actually listens to my suggestions over twitter & AJ. It pains me to see that glad level mages are defending such aberrant playstyles.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#39 Harlemshake

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:37 AM

View PostBraindance, on 15 April 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Then you will be sad to know that he actually listens to my suggestions over twitter & AJ. It pains me to see that glad level mages are defending such aberrant playstyles.
mages still exist as a class so he cant be listening that well i guess

#40 Qtpai

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:53 AM

pigboy basically covered it all, not to mention watchmeblink didn't even have a medallion on he wore the relic pve trinket

one cyclone would have ruined it all




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