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#1 Braindance

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:29 AM

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT SAYING WARRIORS ARE WEAK


The golden age
It pains me to say that, but no one can refuse that WotLK was by far the best era for warriors. 10 second spell reflect, charge and intercept, amazing damage, bladestorm, strong sword and board play. In retrospect it was a paradise - you had every tool you needed in your disposal. There were lots and lots of things separating a good from a bad warrior, mainly because of our skill set variety.

The current age
Through cata and MoP, we have been stripped of everything:
  • Our defensive play relies on a passive skill and a ridiculous stance, without much action required from our part
  • Niche abilities have been removed from our arsenal - intercept, shield block, baseline bladestorm
  • The new rage system, while ideal for pve, is a total failure in pvp
  • Many of our abilities are frozen in time since WotLK or even BC
In this new era of abilities like cloak and dagger and RoP we don't have much to offer apart from our damage which is rivaled and even surpassed by other classes now - dks and mages(!?) come to mind. As Veev said, our playstyle is straight Hulk Smash. We have 0 finesse moves to "shine", mainly because we don't have sufficient tools to react to various situations. Eg. we once had improved hamstring and we were one of the very few classes with a disarm. Now almost everyone has a root effect and a disarm. We used to have MS, but its importance has vastly diminished over the years.

Long story short, even though we are still viable, the playstyle plainly Sucks (with a capital s). All you do is damage. Getting trained? Go defensive stance and still do damage. Partner dying? Use a shockwave, throw a charge, do damage and hope for the best.

We are heavily dependent on long cooldowns.Sure, throwing heavy crits every 3 mins is fun, but it becomes quite boring after a while.

Shield wall is by far the most outdated, pathetic cooldown in the game. 40% damage reduction every 5 minutes - requires a shield. Let's take a look at the more fancy melee cooldowns of 2013:
  • Icebound fortitude: 20% damage reduction, stun immunity for 12 seconds, 3 minute cooldown
  • Combat readiness: 10% mitigation that stacks up to 5 every time you are hit by a melee or ranged attack, 20 second duration, 2 minute cooldown
  • Cloak of shadows: no comment
  • Anti-magic shell: no comment
  • Shamanistic rage: 30% damage reduction, usable while stunned, 1 minute cooldown
  • Survival instincts: 50% damage reduction, 3 minute cooldown
  • Divine protection: 40% magic damage reduction, 1 minute cooldown
  • Barkskin: 20% damage reduction, 1 minute cooldown
It is immediately apparent that all of those abilities have the following common traits:
  • They all have relatively small cooldowns

  • They provides bonuses with minimal trade offs, allowing the user to stay offensive
I am not even gonna compare things like deterrence, dispersion etc. While it is true that we were given a strong 2 min cd defensive cooldown, it doesn't make up for the fact that once shield wall is down you are almost always 100% dead. It is a far superior, and more involved playstyle, to have short defensive cds that you can use proactively or actively before/ during every big swap.
Of course I am not implying that some of the classes with the above cds are better than warriors right now - they are not, but their weaknesses lie in various sectors and not in their defensive cds department.


A more involved playstyle
Changes have to happen, to make our playstyle more interesting, involved and, at the same time, less frustrating to our opponents:
  • It is an affront to any intelligent player, having to play with second wind and a moronic, bloated, passive -% damage reduction. it is reminiscent of s5 dk playstyle in a weaker form. Make defensive stance a mere 10% damage reduction - bring back sword and board. 10 second reflect back -  being "op" in rbgs was a joke in the first place

  • The rage system has to change. Whilst the active component of rage gains is OK, the passive one blows. We used to be angry all the time with a glowing red bad underneath our healthbars when trained - now I can have a mage and an sp blowing their loads all over my screen and my character is calm like a lamb

  • Introduce training protection - warriors ALWAYS had training protection either in the form of rage or enrage. I am not asking for a 25% enrage to come back, but rage MUST come back

  • To keep pressure up outside of cds we have to use almost every global to do damage. We don't have the luxury of casting sheeps, or blinking all over the map to  gain momentum. Therefore it is unfair to have hamstring fill 20% of our globals. Almost every melee has its slow integrated in a main attack - why is this not the case for us? Either that, or force all other melees to manually apply their slow every 6 seconds like we do. And 7 rage for a hamstring when your auto attack every ~3 seconds generates 12 rage IF in battle stance is a no-no

  • Why are some of our most interesting abilities in the same talent tier? Why is safeguard in the same tier as mass spell reflect? Why is piercing howl not baseline?

  • Berserk stance in pvp is almost entirely worthless. It is good for pve but it has 0 pvp usage - I've tried it countless times and it's so situational it's not worth wasting the 3  sec cds on stances

  • Why do stances have 3 sec cooldown...?
I am not optimistic at all knowing Blizzard. It is a shame that things like trinkets or single abilities are looked at, but classes in a more global, dynamic scale are neglected. I also don't believe that the new pvp developer wants to push such drastic changes into place. At best, they will keep tweaking numbers. But because hope is a human thing, I shed my thoughts here waiting for a miracle.

Tell me what you think.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#2 Improve

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:31 AM

all hail our rogue overlords

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#3 kazuhmeer

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:37 AM

I really can't believe how awful shield wall is.  For a 5 minute cooldown that you just die through its pathetic.  If they are intent on keeping it terrible at least bring the CD down so when glyphed it goes to 5 minutes.  

Stance cooldown pisses me off every time I play my warrior, it makes the class feel needlessly clunky.  DK's have no CD on presences which are more or less the same thing so why do warriors.

Berserker Stance is just destined to be taken off the bars its so bad.  

Mostly the class isn't fun to play.  There is no penalty for training a warrior, so most games you will just get trained.  You can't do damage while defensive and just want to kill yourself its so miserable.  The damage you can put out while in battle stance is actually pretty good, but not nearly good enough for the penalty you incur by being in battle stance.

#4 Icekingx

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

Back in my day we had to stance dance to use ability's like wall/reck/intercept etc etc. I remember sword/mace/axe spec the golden days I remember storm herald or pwn herald stun herald whatever you wanna call it. I remember grim toll & armor pen. I remember landing sick spell reflects and coiling warlocks and even reflecting fat burst on destro locks in S6. Those were the days...

Edited by Icekingx, 11 April 2013 - 06:18 AM.

Rawrbertlol, on 14 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Best signatures on entire website.
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#5 WildeHilde

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:29 AM

While I sympathize with what you write - a complete overhaul mid-expansion is not realistic and Shield Wall is a prime PvE cooldown for tanks, altering it is unlikely due to PvE implications. Come up with something that can be done without screwing PvE. Imagine the dev conference, Holinka wants to buff warriors but he needs something to convince the rest of the team.

#6 Regent

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:29 AM

View Postkazuhmeer, on 11 April 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

I really can't believe how awful shield wall is.  For a 5 minute cooldown that you just die through its pathetic.  If they are intent on keeping it terrible at least bring the CD down so when glyphed it goes to 5 minutes.  

Stance cooldown pisses me off every time I play my warrior, it makes the class feel needlessly clunky.  DK's have no CD on presences which are more or less the same thing so why do warriors.

Berserker Stance is just destined to be taken off the bars its so bad.  

Mostly the class isn't fun to play. There is no penalty for training a warrior, so most games you will just get trained.  You can't do damage while defensive and just want to kill yourself its so miserable.  The damage you can put out while in battle stance is actually pretty good, but not nearly good enough for the penalty you incur by being in battle stance.

The good old days when you had to avoid attacking the warrior to not feed him rage.

#7 hoodrych

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:10 AM

pretty much agree with all of this, nice post. obviously warriors were stupid at the beginning of MOP with gag order and swifty one shot, but now that all of that has been toned down you can really see the age of the class.

spell reflect and shield block that actually reduced melee damage are my two biggest gripes. warriors are so weak against casters inherently and a lot of that is spell reflect. no one ever complained about 10s spell reflect in arena, when the nerf happened people were scratching their heads. it's a well designed ability, you actually lose all your damage, have to manually switch 1h/shield and either get the spell you wanted or it could get eaten by a moonfire, but at least you had the option every 10s, and there was a penalty. now if spell reflect is used you pray to have leap or prepare to get blasted for 25 seconds.

i've hated colossus smash since the beginning, it adds so much more clunkiness to our rotation and makes bursting a joke. a lot of our play style is clunky now too, which just makes it not very fun to play (been that way for a while). won't even comment on shield wall since you covered that nicely. dying to physical damage faster then cloth is old, thats my second biggest gripe, armor pen or melee abilities that ignore armor just crush through warriors like nothing. it's a sad state when I die faster to a cleave then my warlock does, so much for armor.

ive played this shit forever and it's really awful to just not even want to play, i logged in to cap today and just got bored and didn't even bother, it's just not even fun because of zero utility and being forced to play a 3min slam machine, literally chaning a couple 90k slams every 3 minutes is our only saving grace.

lastly, i've never really played an alt seriously but ww monk is amazing. i know they aren't super well represented and our weak vs some stuff but so much more enjoyable then warriors. so similar to warriors in a lot of ways.. playing a class that has actual modernized cooldowns has really opened my eyes to how ancient warrior abilities are. perma mini colossus smash, baseline imp hamstring, more mobility, more useful defenses. idk...

#8 kazuhmeer

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:35 AM

i think a lot of people share the sentiment that taking stance specific abilities away from warriors took a lot of fun out of the class

View PostWildeHilde, on 11 April 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

While I sympathize with what you write - a complete overhaul mid-expansion is not realistic and Shield Wall is a prime PvE cooldown for tanks, altering it is unlikely due to PvE implications. Come up with something that can be done without screwing PvE. Imagine the dev conference, Holinka wants to buff warriors but he needs something to convince the rest of the team.

i do understand what you are saying, but i also think its assenine that blizzard balances in that context.  noone plays arms in pve, so why would making a arms specific shield wall change break pve?  they need more specialization specific abilities for warriors.  make arms balanced purely around arena and just throw pve implications out the window, people play fury if they want to dps.

Edited by kazuhmeer, 11 April 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#9 Deonto

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 11 April 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

While I sympathize with what you write - a complete overhaul mid-expansion is not realistic and Shield Wall is a prime PvE cooldown for tanks, altering it is unlikely due to PvE implications. Come up with something that can be done without screwing PvE. Imagine the dev conference, Holinka wants to buff warriors but he needs something to convince the rest of the team.

Warriors have really bad defensive CDs in raids(arms/fury). And on top of that, Shield Wall is only a 2 minute CD for protection. Makes no sense at a 5 minute CD for arms and fury.

I agree with pretty much all that has been said so far. There's just nothing that defines a warrior right now in arenas(we basically have a 3min burst macro). Sure, we have good mobility but that isn't much if it isn't paired with anything meaningful. And our damage, snare and defensive CDs are just.. clunky.

Edited by Deonto, 11 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.

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#10 paiku

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:16 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 11 April 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

While I sympathize with what you write - a complete overhaul mid-expansion is not realistic and Shield Wall is a prime PvE cooldown for tanks, altering it is unlikely due to PvE implications. Come up with something that can be done without screwing PvE. Imagine the dev conference, Holinka wants to buff warriors but he needs something to convince the rest of the team.

i didn't get your point. in pve tanks always use 1h + shields and the cooldown is on 2min for prot.
how would it screw up PVE if you remove the shield requirements und lower the cooldown for arms/fury to 2 min for an example ?

p.s.
I loved Wotlk shield block it was awesome :) Remember those scrub Warriors trying to BS me and I blocked the whole dmg and spammed revenge.

Edited by paiku, 11 April 2013 - 08:19 AM.


#11 Mbgz

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:35 AM

View Posthoodrych, on 11 April 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:


spell reflect and shield block that actually reduced melee damage are my two biggest gripes. warriors are so weak against casters inherently and a lot of that is spell reflect. no one ever complained about 10s spell reflect in arena, when the nerf happened people were scratching their heads. it's a well designed ability, you actually lose all your damage, have to manually switch 1h/shield and either get the spell you wanted or it could get eaten by a moonfire, but at least you had the option every 10s, and there was a penalty. now if spell reflect is used you pray to have leap or prepare to get blasted for 25 seconds.

i Agree with this. spell reflect is a nice mechanic that rewards skill and mind games, much similar to interrupting. we need more of this in wow not less.

#12 kazuhmeer

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:14 AM

View PostMbgz, on 11 April 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

i Agree with this. spell reflect is a nice mechanic that rewards skill and mind games, much similar to interrupting. we need more of this in wow not less.

maybe buff the glyph to bring reflect down to 15s?  10 just seems to short

#13 Usingg

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:21 AM

put a passive slow on our overpower, and add 10% spell damage reduce while in s/b

FIXED
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#14 ardnut

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostUsingg, on 11 April 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

put a passive slow on our overpower, and add 10% spell damage reduce while in s/b

FIXED

Well maybe it would be fixed from a balance point of view... not from a fun point of view.  Short of intervening a blind or reflecting a deep, there isn't much skillful/fun game play left.
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#15 Crankyboern

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:22 AM

Abilities i REALLY miss:

-Bladestorm (can spec it but its useless)
- 10s Spellreflect! Lord, make it 25s only if its mass reflect - fixed. (No not  15s or need of glyph just baseline 10s FFS)
- Revenge and Shield block in D-Stance...
- UA - i know 50% op blabla but there is no real MS anymore so maybe something like that?
- Intercept
- Stance req. in genereal
- remove CS and give a bit more sustained dmg out of swifty (speaking of rage i guess)

PS: Good topic so far plz no trolls in here ;)

#16 Raphner

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:22 AM

Im pretty sure it will be buffed, it will still be boring as hell. But maybe next expansion they will change the gameplay.
As they did in cataclysm, it felt like it was a good gameplay mod so they kept it for MoP. Eventough no warrior enjoyed it at all.
Well guys, atleast you have next expansions first season to blow up things :)

Oh god i miss wotlk.

Edited by Raphner, 11 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.

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#17 Veev

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:31 AM

Agree on the need for built-in snare (on MS or OP).  Also like the idea of 10-15% spell dmg reduction when a shield is equipped.

One of the main reasons why Shield Wall is so bad is because of Seasoned Soldier.  Change it to work with a shield and it'd be a start (still huge damage reduction from weapon damage).

It's been said many times before, but how reliant warriors are on Avatar burst isn't good for the class.  We also lack some serious utility compared to rogues now.  Make avatar baseline, nerf it to 15% dmg for 20 sec on 2m cooldown, and allow us to use Storm Bolt with it may be worth considering.

And I feel like warriors need some other strictly utility spell for peeling for their teammates.  Maybe make mocking banner pulse a physical/magical intervene on nearby teammates every 5 seconds?  The intervene would go to the warrior, so could steal a kidney shot or death coil meant for your healer if used properly (while still hurting the warrior, but allowing them to peel besides just relying on counter-pressure).

#18 Zerych

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:28 AM

It would be fun to bring back some "def ability" for arms warrior, in a way where to dps in def stance you have to use a shield  with shield slam and such, making a complete different gameplay if your going def, and obviously if you are not trained, the shield and def stuff become useless. That way we will need to adapt when we get trained and we would be somewhat useful (+ a complete "new" gamestyle !)

I don't know if my idea is very clear though ...

Edited by Zerych, 11 April 2013 - 11:28 AM.


#19 ardnut

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:02 PM

View PostZerych, on 11 April 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

It would be fun to bring back some "def ability" for arms warrior, in a way where to dps in def stance you have to use a shield  with shield slam and such, making a complete different gameplay if your going def, and obviously if you are not trained, the shield and def stuff become useless. That way we will need to adapt when we get trained and we would be somewhat useful (+ a complete "new" gamestyle !)

I don't know if my idea is very clear though ...

What you have described is basically how it used to be.  When you went 1h+shield in def stance you would use completely different abilities like revenge and shield block/shield slam etc.
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#20

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:05 PM

the reason warriors have shield for "wall" is because they dont want it to be DK style and pop defensives and tunnel damage, yet warriors are still superior to dks, just that its hard to balance warriors, seeing in cata they were op as fuck, s9 nerf trash as fuck etc etc mop op as fuck, you name it




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