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#1 Thaya

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:40 PM

I've wrote about this in replies before, but I think this issue deserves a thread of its own, just to raise awareness. "RBG killed Arena" is a common opinion in this community, and while it has some truth in it, you all should realize one thing: RBG won't go anywhere. This thread is not a rant about RBG itself, and I don't want it to become one - please don't post about how you hate RBG if that's all you have to say.

So, hypothesis: RBG matchmaking/ladder issues are negatively affecting Arena PvP.

I'd like you all to take a look at this:
EU RBG ladder: http://eu.battle.net.../battlegrounds/
US RBG ladder: http://us.battle.net.../battlegrounds/

These rating ranges are much more inflated than they are in Arena, where the absolutely highest teams with the most ridiculous winratios are 2.6k - and there's only 7 of them in EU and US combined. This is both due to how the system itself works, and a number of exploits and workarounds that existed or still exist. A result of this is that reaching, say, 2.2k in RBG is easier than reaching 2.2k in Arena - even past the extra logistics, and even if we forget about the exploits and workarounds. 2.2k is viewed as a trivial RBG rating, while 2.2k in Arena is a challenge. It's human nature to choose the easier path, and this is where Arena suffers.

On top of that, RBG has a better Conquest cap formula that everybody complains about; even if you remove the bonus formula, doing RBG is still much more profitable due to its inflated ladder. I like the analogy with 10 and 25 man raiding. The difficulty is almost the same. World firsts for 10 and 25 man are only a few days apart, if not the same day. 25 man drops extra loot, which is a fine bonus for the extra effort organizing it - just as the extra Conquest cap from RBG is totally fine, but only if the difficulty is the same. (PvE had this exact same issue at Cataclysm release when 10 and 25 started dropping the same ilvl loot, by the way, it took Blizzard at least two tiers to balance it out.)

This is what we should complain about. Fix the RBG system (some of the exploits are so trivial, it makes you wonder why it takes so long to fix them), reset it to wipe the inflated ladder, and try to keep RBG:Arena ratings similar. RBG will stop killing Arena once it stops being a much easier alternative to get gear, for all the wrong reasons.

P.S.
Something that bothers me and everybody else since MoP, what is up with the capping system? You can cap the last bit only and exclusively via RBG. Even if you play RBG before playing Arena, those Conquest points you get from the RBG wins will count towards the Arena cap if it's still available. So, a situation like this is fully realistic:
1) You play and win a couple of RBGs;
2) You play and win a couple of Arenas, reaching the maximum Arena cap;
3) You now must do more RBG in order to finish capping, because the RBGs you did in "1)" went into your Arena cap, not your RBG cap. You're now confused why the hell it says you didn't earn any points via RBG this week even though you did.

Is this really intended? I thought the idea was to have two separate caps, just counting towards a shared maximum. Like it was in Cataclysm.

Also, wins in random BGs used to go into either cap, so you could finish capping via random BGs. I don't really mind if this was intentionally removed, but it makes no sense to me.

Edit: this really screws up 2v2, by the way. All the high rated PvPers rush to get their arena cap done on tuesday/wednesday after reset, which makes lower rated players really suffer. Lots of people saying they keep meeting Gladiators at 1700 MMR in 2v2 - official forums are full of these complaints, you can open just about any thread. You can also check streams on reset days to confirm it yourself. It's standard practice by now. Not healthy for the game.

Edited by Thaya, 08 April 2013 - 10:55 PM.

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#2

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:05 PM

i agree that the fkn capping system is broken, if i play 3rbg wins quickly and then im forced to do rbg for the rest of the week cause i didint cap arena before..

#3 Mitoo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:11 PM

Good post. I agree with mostly all you wrote here.

I do feel need to express my personal view, and what you maybe forgot to mention.
Regarding the "RBG killed Arena", for me RBG  killed arena because its, and i repeat its my personal feelings, 100 time more fun to play RBG than Arena. ( i play Warlock and Shaman, dont play my rogue much).

When you enter Arena and you see other comp, you can tell if you have a chance or not, and that fucks you up before the fight even started, because you know  1. dont stand a chance, 2. you know you gonna stomp 3. it is a 50% 50% chance to win.

In RBG, no matter what the other team comp is, its always close call, again this is in my personal experiance, and this situation is why its so fun for me, because even if you lose, you get that positive rage, "OMG we had them it was so close, shit if we only didnt do this or that, or they better played that last part etc".

When you win its again fun to know that you won because you or your team did something in last second or what ever to get that win.

The fights in that large team scale, target calling, CC, healing etc, def and attack coordination is just fun, and alot more fun moments happen.

And lets not forget that you get to play your character more than 25 sec per fight :).

TLDR: RBGs fun factor compared to frustration that is arena killed arena for me.

Sorry for bad English btw

Edited by Mitoo, 08 April 2013 - 01:13 PM.


#4 Thaya

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

It's completely fine to enjoy RBG more than Arena - I am sure you're not the only one. All I'm saying is that gearing via Arena or via RBG should be approximately equal, in both difficulty and time.
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#5 Salutations

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

who cares really ? in 1 month we will have full tyrannical ... but i'm still agree with you.

Edited by Salutations, 08 April 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#6 Stormshiftx

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:35 PM

Agreed that exploits and win traders need to be delt with, and the problems fixed.  But, the people who played legit RBGs last season  topped off at 2.5-2.6 before win trading and after, so the RBG system is fine when no one is exploiting.  Barely anyone is 2.6 legit this season, and arena ratings are going to inflate to more than 2.8k judging from the achievements they are going to release, so peoples arena ratings will be higher legit than their RBG ratings.

Hope this makes sense, just woke up >>

#7 Thaya

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:46 PM

View PostStormshiftx, on 08 April 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Agreed that exploits and win traders need to be delt with, and the problems fixed.  But, the people who played legit RBGs last season  topped off at 2.5-2.6 before win trading and after, so the RBG system is fine when no one is exploiting.  Barely anyone is 2.6 legit this season, and arena ratings are going to inflate to more than 2.8k judging from the achievements they are going to release, so peoples arena ratings will be higher legit than their RBG ratings.

Hope this makes sense, just woke up >>
Last season is a pretty bad example, lol.

Last season you could get 5k rating on level 1 chars until the last couple of months of the season. I know several people who did RBG boosting to 3k+ wintrading and exploiting the queue. I play late at nights, and last season that was the primetime for RBG just because half the time you'd play against an empty wintrading team with a ridiculously high MMR, giving you free ~50 rating or more. That's how people reached 2.5-2.6k "legit". There was even a massive ban wave over this, don't you remember?

They did fix the most obvious exploit, but there are still several workarounds that people use.

Edited by Thaya, 08 April 2013 - 01:47 PM.

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#8 Thaya

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:55 PM

Small edit regarding the arena/RBG cap issue: this really screws up 2v2, by the way. All the high rated PvPers rush to get their arena cap done on tuesday/wednesday after reset, which makes lower rated players really suffer. Lots of people saying they keep meeting Gladiators at 1700 MMR in 2v2 - official forums are full of these complaints, you can open just about any thread. You can also check streams on reset days to confirm it yourself. It's standard practice by now. Not healthy for the game.
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#9 Bamflol

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

View PostThaya, on 08 April 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Last season is a pretty bad example, lol.

Last season you could get 5k rating on level 1 chars until the last couple of months of the season. I know several people who did RBG boosting to 3k+ wintrading and exploiting the queue. I play late at nights, and last season that was the primetime for RBG just because half the time you'd play against an empty wintrading team with a ridiculously high MMR, giving you free ~50 rating or more. That's how people reached 2.5-2.6k "legit". There was even a massive ban wave over this, don't you remember?

They did fix the most obvious exploit, but there are still several workarounds that people use.
people are still wintrading, there was some team w/RaF toons that was 3359 mmr flat, and they would not lose any mmr after beaing them. Qued into them twice in a row on my alt warrior. So the teams that exploited last season are keeping their mmr somehow and feeding wintrade boosts w.o losing any mmr at all. Oddly enough though we only got like 7 points off them at like 2k mmr, so im guessing blizzard did something to fix the difference between mmr.

Other than that I completely agree, rbgs should offer nothing more than the same cap as arenas, and blizzard needs to purge all these teams that are never losing mmr.

I feel bad for anyone who has qued into any of these people because people are going to get banned/gear reset/rating reset again just for queing into people who are fucking up the system, accidentally or not.

#10 kazuhmeer

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostThaya, on 08 April 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Edit: this really screws up 2v2, by the way. All the high rated PvPers rush to get their arena cap done on tuesday/wednesday after reset, which makes lower rated players really suffer. Lots of people saying they keep meeting Gladiators at 1700 MMR in 2v2 - official forums are full of these complaints, you can open just about any thread. You can also check streams on reset days to confirm it yourself. It's standard practice by now. Not healthy for the game.

100% agree with this.  Its impossible to teach newer players how to arena in 2v2 when you que into multi-glads who tank MMR just for a point cap.  This is a pretty large problem imo, maybe make 3v3/5v5 give more conquest points per win @ certain ratings?  i.e. 2v2 wins at  1500 mmr grant 80 conquest wins and 3v3 @ 1500 mmr grants 180?  Something that scales up, so later one like 3v3 @ 2200 you're gaining 300 conq per win.

#11 Regent

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:33 PM

RBGs are just dumb, a novelty. You are forced to play certain comps or vastly outgear/outskill the other team. People just stack OP classes and if you aren't an OP class GL getting into any serious RBGs.

#12 Moreudirl

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:40 PM

View PostRegent, on 08 April 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

RBGs are just dumb, a novelty. You are forced to play certain comps or vastly outgear/outskill the other team. People just stack OP classes and if you aren't an OP class GL getting into any serious RBGs.

sounds more like arena than rbg...

any combination of 10 players as long as its 2-3 healer anchored can play rbgs competitively.

in arenas you have to play shadowpriest x x or hunter cleave....

Edited by Moreudirl, 08 April 2013 - 11:41 PM.


#13 Thaya

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:54 PM

Don't turn this into a arena vs rbg discussion please. It's completely down to personal preference, so any argument will be pointless.
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#14 snackbacon

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:55 PM

While there is a little more flexibility  in RBGs with what you play with, let's not be naive here.. There classes that you pretty much HAVE to bring in order to be successful, it's just less blatant than arena right now.

Like someone said earlier, I like doing rbgs because I always feel like there's a good chance of winning. When you zone into 3s, you can get a comp that you know is going to be an uphill battle the entire time.

The one thing that I have really hated about RBGs is something that you touched on. It is stupid that RBG conq. cap counts toward arena cap as well. I can't believe that has been in the game as long as it has.

Edited by snackbacon, 08 April 2013 - 11:58 PM.


#15 djp771133

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:01 AM

last time I checked, there was a reason why abn ran like 6 destros some boomkins and 1 healer.

#16 hekumzx

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:28 AM

OP is right, but people have bee nsaying the same shit in different ways for 6 months.

Also, the fact that you can run most anything and be competitive is atleast mostly true BUT if you don't have a boomkin, every single player on your team basically has to outplay everyone on the other team or youre fucked.  

If they ever fix solar beam so you can atleast trinket the stupid shit or trinket vortex effect then you may nearly be able to play any comp as long as you play well and win as a team.  If beam remained unchanged but you could trinket inside vortex and run out, that would be a good start.  Imagine if ring was untrinketable and undispellable and you just gripped an entire team into ring and double shattered a healer.  That would be fucking stupid, similar to the current vortex beam.  That's another convo though, good post +rep.

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#17 Pitiless

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostMoreudirl, on 08 April 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

sounds more like arena than rbg...

any combination of 10 players as long as its 2-3 healer anchored can play rbgs competitively.

in arenas you have to play shadowpriest x x or hunter cleave....

As someone having to pug rbgs, that's not true, and it's really annoying.

Join group.

Wait 20 mins to find TC DK who actually has a mic.  Wait to find a FC.  Wait to find a boomkin who isn't a complete retard. Find a good lock and mage, etc.

Win 1 game, lose the 2nd.  DK and boomkin leave.  Sit around for another hour waiting for them to be replaced.  After 6 hours I might have my cap, and my rating is probably about the same as when I started (2kish).

That's pretty much how it is.  I just came back to the game, and I remember random 2k rbgs from like s9-s10 where you could grab any classes, but now even 1900-2k rbgs are usually min/maxed.  I just don't think you can compare rbgs with rank 1 players to 2k pugs that the vast majority of people are forced to do, as far as class not mattering.  

It feels like in arena class matters less, just because it's MUCH easier to find two good players to do 3s with, where even if your team isn't min/maxed, you can still beat most of the 2kish teams that are fotm comps by outskilling them. As opposed to the difficulty in finding 9 other good players for rbgs (unless you're in abn's group or one of the couple other ones that have good players).

And I fully agree with the OP.

Edited by Pitiless, 09 April 2013 - 01:13 AM.


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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:03 AM

View PostMoreudirl, on 08 April 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

sounds more like arena than rbg...

any combination of 10 players as long as its 2-3 healer anchored can play rbgs competitively.

except you forgot the part where you must have one ddos'er on your team to play.

rBG's are a joke anyways, not even because the design, because of the amount of wintrading/ddos'ing that happens without punishment.

theres some video on youtube of some shitbag mage literally screaming at splatted to ddos a dk on the other team during a stream. i dont get it, has ddos'ing become an accepted practice in rbgs?

on a different note: i dont even think many people queue rbgs that much anymore because of their current state.

#19 moojerk

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:20 AM

Agreed. Today's RBGs are loot piñata.

#20 Ntundi

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:26 AM

View PostHektiik, on 09 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

If they ever fix solar beam so you can atleast trinket the stupid shit or trinket vortex effect then you may nearly be able to play any comp as long as you play well and win as a team.  If beam remained unchanged but you could trinket inside vortex and run out, that would be a good start.  Imagine if ring was untrinketable and undispellable and you just gripped an entire team into ring and double shattered a healer.  That would be fucking stupid, similar to the current vortex beam.  That's another convo though, good post +rep.

They're fixing the size of the fricking thing at least next patch and the silence will be more reactionary so, ideally, you should be able to move out of it but not so far away that you get vortexed back in. :)

View PostThaya, on 08 April 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

Last season is a pretty bad example, lol.

Last season you could get 5k rating on level 1 chars until the last couple of months of the season. I know several people who did RBG boosting to 3k+ wintrading and exploiting the queue. I play late at nights, and last season that was the primetime for RBG just because half the time you'd play against an empty wintrading team with a ridiculously high MMR, giving you free ~50 rating or more. That's how people reached 2.5-2.6k "legit". There was even a massive ban wave over this, don't you remember?

They did fix the most obvious exploit, but there are still several workarounds that people use.

RBG top team's were playing legit up to about 2.5-2.6k last season before Xmas after which the exploits and wintrading exploded inflating the whole system.

View PostThaya, on 08 April 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

P.S.
Something that bothers me and everybody else since MoP, what is up with the capping system? You can cap the last bit only and exclusively via RBG. Even if you play RBG before playing Arena, those Conquest points you get from the RBG wins will count towards the Arena cap if it's still available. So, a situation like this is fully realistic:
1) You play and win a couple of RBGs;
2) You play and win a couple of Arenas, reaching the maximum Arena cap;
3) You now must do more RBG in order to finish capping, because the RBGs you did in "1)" went into your Arena cap, not your RBG cap. You're now confused why the hell it says you didn't earn any points via RBG this week even though you did.

Is this really intended? I thought the idea was to have two separate caps, just counting towards a shared maximum. Like it was in Cataclysm.

Also, wins in random BGs used to go into either cap, so you could finish capping via random BGs. I don't really mind if this was intentionally removed, but it makes no sense to me.

Always confused me too as to why the RBG conquest points count towards the arena ones and why they removed the random battlegrounds counting towards the rbg conquest cap.  Perplexing to say the least, however, I'm guessing it was Blizzards way to force more ppl to do RBGs.

Edited by Ntundi, 09 April 2013 - 03:29 AM.





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