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Holy paladin changes id want


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#41 diglett23

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostRegent, on 08 April 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

I don't feel "weak", I feel not as good. There is a difference between the two.

I agree, but I just feel against any Rogue team, I'm just hopeless. They just swap to me and kill me instantly. Talking to rogues they say Holy Pallies are the easiest healer for them to kill.

#42 Mbgz

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

View Postdiglett23, on 08 April 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I agree, but I just feel against any Rogue team, I'm just hopeless. They just swap to me and kill me instantly. Talking to rogues they say Holy Pallies are the easiest healer for them to kill.

and thats when you realise something is wrong with the game.

what is a holy paladin ? A knight in FULL plate armor, with a BIG shield on their bag. which apperently is the EASIEST target for a rogue to kill? what is a rogue? a sneaky melee class with SMALL daggers.

so big armored knight die the easiest to a rogue with small daggers? ok make sense. gg

#43 Persephones

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:12 AM

View PostRegent, on 08 April 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

I don't feel "weak", I feel not as good. There is a difference between the two.

Which would make you.. Weaker, no? Isn't that the same? :P

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#44 Mindsmoothie

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:40 AM

I feel paladins lack survivability while stunned. Druids can barkskin, priests take 30% less damage from focused will, shamans have a free battlemaster, monks have a 2.5second miss thing. DP while stunned would be huge as you wouldn't have to trinket a deep at 100% health or die because a mage touched you for 3 seconds. In addition I think freedom/sac/purity should have like a minimum 2 second dispel immunity because ATM with the huge number of spriests/mage/hunter/dk they tend to get sniped and are often times a waste of a global. It would also be nice if necrotic strike didnt bug out our mastery, ATM its a 30% mortal strike which is pretty retarded.

#45

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:47 AM

They need to do something about offensive dispels, almost every single team has atleast one, a lot have 2 or even 3 people with it. I don't think making Hand spells undispellable is a particularly good change for the game in general, but it's really frustrating when you get scattered/poly'd/blinded with sacrificed up, and its dispelled before any damage even transfers, or you/your partners have to use /cancelaura Hand of freedom just to stop the mage from stealing it.

Edited by Radejjj, 08 April 2013 - 06:51 AM.


#46 Seu

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

im surprised people are focusing so much on cc in this thread, i really think the biggest problem with holy paladins right now is how easy it is to just kill them instantly.

they really are the only healing class where every 4 second silence or stun is a real kill opportunity, paladins are just too easy to knock over right now. shams get es and totems, druids have barskin and hots, priests have shields prayer and supp, but on my paladin it just feels like no matter how telegraphed a swap is they are gonna get a cooldown out of me. when I hop back on my dpriest i feel like an unkillable god :/

I think before addressing paladin cc issues they should address survivability, as I think pallies could be a bit more aggressive with their own cc if they could play offensively without the constant threat of dying randomly

#47 Mirionx

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostRadejjj, on 08 April 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

They need to do something about offensive dispels, almost every single team has atleast one, a lot have 2 or even 3 people with it.

Wont happen mid expansion =/

#48 Ballerjones

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

I would like to see rogues die in a fire

Edited by Ballerjones, 08 April 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#49 Vlada

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:46 AM

View PostTalbadar, on 07 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

The game needs less things usable while stunned/silenced for healers, not more. I think Paladins need buffs, but being able to DP while stunned or Devotion Aura out of silence is just another stale type of gameplay similar to Tremor Totem. There is no reaction of prediction to something happening. You got stunned, therefore you press DP. You got silenced, therefore you press Devotion Aura.

Paladins have always suffered from being crowd controlled, especially chains of CC. IMO Paladins could use 15% less duration on Fear and Polymorph effects. They are the strongest healer when not controlled, but the weakest while controlled. I think them dying to Mages/Rogues/Spriests is an issue, but not one that can be easily solved without making them invincible against other classes.

All other healers can prevent/survive mage/rogue/SP openers and switches much easier than paladins, we can only pre-DP which is on "big" cooldown. Imagine disc priest or druid not being able to skin or PS in stuns, it's like that for us vs mages\rogues, it's easy to chain stuns into silences cause you can't do anything to stop it. Everything is instant cast in this game now

Edited by Vlada, 08 April 2013 - 10:55 AM.


#50 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

The problem with Hpala is that there is too much cc and I don't see why people don't realize this. They are the easiest healer to cc. It's the only healer I've seen that MUST NOT save their trinket because ONE CC can essentially put you way behind and if the other team is decent this will happen. The class as a whole gets carried by the classes they can play with. Holy has a lot of mechanic flaws and as the game advances I see it more and more.

   This spec is most affected by any overall healing nerf. Aka MS Buffs battle fatigue etc. We don't mitigate damage really for the most part nor do we counteract it with big hots, we just burst heal. So when we sit cc coming out of the cc a cooldown is generally used if the other team is going hard whether by me or by my partners while I was cc'd then here comes the kicker MORE INSTANT CC while trying to top the person off. This forces paladins to play rushdown melee comps like tsg phdk kfc etc things that get the kills in the minute mark because it literally takes 60 seconds if done right to force paladin outs so your team can stay offense and get that kill.

   Hpala have next to nothing to use on their partners besides eternal flame or sacred shit. This is the main issue, which also causes paladins to be forced to use their only defensive as a trinket to save their partners. Now given I completely disagree with being able to use divine prot while stunned or AM while silenced to break them. It dumbs down the gameplay and the skillful things you can do with this r1 shit spec.

  General changes that need to happen. Instant AOE CC needs to be shorter duration (IE: Howl/Psychic Scream.. SOLAR BEAM) being 6 seconds versus 8 or 10. There is too much instant cc to begin with the ones that control multiple players and are general inevitable need to be less effective.

  I've brought this one up before and it was ignored. Holy paladins DO NOT HAVE PUSHBACK RESIST. it wasn't given passively to the spec and there is no way to obtain it. It should be there because even if you fake the opposing team any cast time reduction spells make my .8 infused divine 3 seconds and I've died so many times because of this I want to throw up thinking about it

Aura Mastery (Devo aura) Needs to be 2 minutes not 3, The problem with it being on par with disc/monk AM is that it's a group/raid wide buff that would be too strong on such a short cd.

Sacred Shield needs to be more like the WOTLK Sacred sheild. It needs to give a HoT on either Flash or Divine and actually absorb something. It needs to proc instantly when put on someone and it shouldn't have a 6 second cd. A 23k absorb every 6 second is probably the biggest joke since you can only have it on one target at a time and Most comps you queue into cleave your team down with diseases dots etc the shield needs to be larger and I might take it over EF

Hand of Sac.. so many times do I sac scatter or blind or WHATEVER and it gets dispelled off my partner before I take damage while they're being bent over. It needs a minute cd to be undispellable 10 second duration not on clemency. That's not asking much infact it's still weaker than every other healers cc avoidance. Aka grounding windshear SW:D (even though 99% of priests are bad and never death or glyph for death) Shifting bunches of cc. Shadowmeld for night elf Soon to be Nimble Brew for monks. Will of the forsaeken for undead The list goes on!

As for rogues? SWAP YOU SAY? Rofl jk open paladin with cds if nothing is done you die in the cheap shot. While i'm sure this is more of a rogue is too strong thing it's only topped off by the fact that your team 9/10 times can't even stop the rogues team from being right ontop of you on their opener. Shroud makes life suck that much more that you as the paladin can't even have your mates inbetween you and them. (As any healer for that matter)

I'm sure there will be bias and disagreement towards my statements but I expect that. I've played this class/spec enough to know that mechanic wise it's really bad and poorly designed.

TL:DR Hpala are terribly designed and if you care why you'll read my mumbo jumbo on why and how it can start to be fixed.

PS: I like Talbadars idea of making fears and polys last shorter durations on us, I just don't see blizzard doing it.

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 08 April 2013 - 11:08 AM.


#51 latturalol

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:22 AM

Good read ^

#52 dionim

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:29 AM

I think they should give paladins some cd to survive outside of bubble.


But also work on making they cast more, right now if you dont kill in in the blanket (witch happens 90% of the time) they will top everyone in a couple globals.

IMO the spell to work with and balance holy pallys is SACRED SHIELD.
IMO, nerf some % on instant cast healing spells, buff casted heals, buff passive heals (like sacred shield and eternal flame)
if sacred shield is a little better, and blizz balance the burst, pallys would have a better surv against swaps.

maybe guardian can be bop when stunned and it heals you.

Also the MS thing on plea is really dumb =\

#53 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

View Postdionim, on 08 April 2013 - 11:29 AM, said:

I think they should give paladins some cd to survive outside of bubble.


But also work on making they cast more, right now if you dont kill in in the blanket (witch happens 90% of the time) they will top everyone in a couple globals.

IMO the spell to work with and balance holy pallys is SACRED SHIELD.
IMO, nerf some % on instant cast healing spells, buff casted heals, buff passive heals (like sacred shield and eternal flame)
if sacred shield is a little better, and blizz balance the burst, pallys would have a better surv against swaps.

maybe guardian can be bop when stunned and it heals you.

Also the MS thing on plea is really dumb =\

Am I the only paladin that has to cast because I never crit even when I reforge all crit? ;(

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 08 April 2013 - 11:32 AM.


#54

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:03 PM

View Postdiglett23, on 08 April 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I agree, but I just feel against any Rogue team, I'm just hopeless. They just swap to me and kill me instantly. Talking to rogues they say Holy Pallies are the easiest healer for them to kill.
rogue can kill any while dances,  not just palas.If an rps swaps on ur healer , even if hes disc priest or rsham he ll die if he gets no peels , its not an 1v1 game , if ur team knows what to do they ll peel for u , aka safeguard , grip rogue away , stun rogue , anything.

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:04 PM

View Postdiglett23, on 08 April 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

I agree, but I just feel against any Rogue team, I'm just hopeless. They just swap to me and kill me instantly. Talking to rogues they say Holy Pallies are the easiest healer for them to kill.
+ rogues could always kill u when they were dancing , back in cata, even in wrath a disc priest could get 1 shotted by a rogue , its all about how fast ur team reacts and peels properly.

#56 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 08 April 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

rogue can kill any while dances,  not just palas.If an rps swaps on ur healer , even if hes disc priest or rsham he ll die if he gets no peels , its not an 1v1 game , if ur team knows what to do they ll peel for u , aka safeguard , grip rogue away , stun rogue , anything.
JK dodge scatter shot, cloak and dagger grip. Not every comp can peel for their healer at all times. Pala comps generally peel through pressure and jk rogue does more pressure in 5 seconds with cds up than my bm hunter and dk do in a full trap with all cds up. (Pressure NOT damage)

#57 Bamflol

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:45 PM

one thing that would promote pallies casting more imo would be if when we get kicked on school it doesnt lock literally every spell in our spellbook out... If i have two melee sitting on me i'm more worried about not trying to fake because if i do get locked i won't be able to bubble/bop /insertanypaladinabilityhere. every other healer has different schools if i call correct (priests/shamans/druids/ not sure about monks).
inb4l2juke.

edit: what i mean rather, is with the state of the game currently, obviously if someone gets a kick off they should be rewarded, just atm pallies just drop if they arnt healing for 2 seconds, while classes like shamans have auto fall backs such as the ancestral spirit thingy where they get 30% of their max health when they dip to 20% or w.e. Priests have some passive abilities as well (obviously doesnt work out well when they have ppl cleaning them but atleast it's something). Monks get a passive "hey u cant hit me" when they get stunned every 10 seconds. Druids have hots ticking.

Edited by Bamflol, 08 April 2013 - 12:53 PM.


#58 Mirionx

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 01:08 PM

View PostTalbadar, on 07 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

The game needs less things usable while stunned/silenced for healers, not more.

Let's make the game more skillful then.

Nature's guardian can't proc unless you're out off stun & silences(or make it a use ability that you can't use at all because you die in stuns), cacon can't be used while stunned, PS not usable while stunned either, barkskin not usable while stunned or silenced same with iron bark.

There we go, skill back in the game and every healer pulled to the same edge and every healer would need similar baby sitting like we do.

You can't say every other healer should have either passive survival or CDs usable while stunned but not paladins. It doesn't work in the current game, every healer need their defensive CDs or they'll just die in the opener like paladins do right now. For another expansion sure you can change that. But right now it's rather pathetic playing a class that has to either use, trinket, AM & probably guardian or wings / favor in the opener or just use their biggest CD because a rogue decided to cheap shot you or a mage looked at you. It's the best solution to do mid-xpac, DP while stunned is an easy solution that would fix a lot of the survival issues, the CC problems are something they've already said we can't fix right now.

I'd much rather have decent CDs and less stuns & cds in the game but it's not going to get changed and I don't really feel like waiting for another expansion to be able and play my class. But that's just me.

Edited by Mirionx, 08 April 2013 - 01:15 PM.


#59 drunkbaby

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:20 PM

Above anything else, I'd just like a fighting chance against wizards and their propsensity for sliding it into my cornhole ad infinitum. Give us a talent (I'm looking at you Unbreakable Spirit), or ideally a glyph, that makes Aura Mastery a spell reflect instead of a silence immunity. This not only gives us a much needed defense against those mage shatters, but would also let us get creative and possibly (gasp) offensive. A shorter cooldown wouldn't hurt either, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. I doubt something this awesome and fair would get put into the game cause too many mages would cry about deeping themselves.

That or do something with judgement. Does anyone even have it on their bars? Maybe a stacking magic and/or physical damage reduction buff, dispellable of course. Pallys need something to punish wizards who overextend and blindly throw all their CC at them.

This would help ret out a bit, too easily trained at the moment still.

#60 Welgard

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

The main issue is just the direction the game is heading.  Every expansion people get new and exciting abilities, and eventually there's just too much in the game.  Some healers do too much healing without casting, making it harder to land an interrupt as often.  As a result, people start to get blanket silences, and more stuns.  The healers that are stuck hardcasting all the time are now at a disadvantage, so they get more instant heals.  It's this never ending arms race.  The problem is, there is so much crap you can blanket someone with, that they might not even be able to use any of those instant spells before dying.

There are mechanics like aoe fears that are part of the issue too.  A warrior can break out of most fears in a game, even more with a shaman partner.  So the cooldown on an aoe fear ability gets lowered.  What happens to the players that don't have fear breaks every 30 seconds though?  Imo, other than a trinket, you shouldn't have any way to escape out of a type of crowd control or stun.  Then you can increase the cooldown on those crowd control, stun, and silence abilities.

Get back to more hardcasting in the game, and actually fakecasting.  It's pretty cool to fake the pummel, and the disrupting shout, then to get charge stunned on your real cast, then shockwaved, and then pummel is already back up.  Some classes (DKs included), are far too forgiving when it comes to missing an interrupt, you can just keep smashing other stuns, silences, and interrupts into them that even if they fake you out, they will fall behind significantly.

While drinking in arenas in BC wasn't exactly super fun, it highlights an important part of pvp - healers couldn't endlessly cast without running into mana problems.  2s right now is a disaster with so many healer/dps draws.  The issue is that one dps with the help of their healer teammate often can't kill someone on the other team.  But when they have a third teammate, they can drop an enemy really quickly while the healer on the other team is cc'ed or their teammates are KFCed.  Healers got far too strong because they had to be able to keep up with the healing in 3s, when there were far too many types of cc, stuns, and silences that they had to recover from.  When there's a little more than half as many types of that nonsense in 2s, the healer is usually able to overcome the limited cc available and keep their teammate or themselves alive.

Blizz really needs to gut the game of a lot of the stuns, silences, crowd control, and extra interrupts, it's just way out of control.  Alternatively, maybe they should just make an arena minigame, with there just being 3 premade character options: healer, caster, melee.




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