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#101 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostRaidspec, on 09 April 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Raidspec, God of Paladins here. I approve this message


What Blessedlol said... >.>

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 10 April 2013 - 08:08 AM.


#102 moelol

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostRaidspec, on 09 April 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Raidspec, God of Paladins here. I approve this message

masud hossain here

#103 Regent

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:38 AM

Well, its not looking good.

Apparently they are taking away 75k of our mana.

Edited by Regent, 13 April 2013 - 12:22 AM.


#104 Aoedin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

Thesis: Give paladin cleanse a four second cooldown and a lot of paladin issues will be solved.

By giving us the ability to cleanse more, we can prevent some CC and cut down certain comp's DPS. This will solve a lot of issues for paladins.

From my understanding, the change to cleanse is something that was meant to let players decide what to cleanse, instead of spamming it. However, there are just too many crowd control effects out there that affect not only the paladin but also her teammates. Fears, polymorph, counterspell, silence, strangulate, pet web, repentance, hammer  and fist of justice, freezing trap, frost nova, entangling roots, totem roots, chillblains, are just some of the effects that can mess up a paladin's teammates, especially since paladins are typically playing with hunters warriors or death knights.

To give cleanse a shorter cooldown will also mean the paladin has more opportunity to remove harmful debuffs like diseases and damage over time spells. This change will directly help how paladins can easily fall behind on healing. A shorter cleanse cooldown is not overpowered because shadow priests and affliction warlocks have dot protection.

I argue that by reducing cooldown on cleanse, it is not game breaking because:

1) Paladins are still vulnerable to being killed by just about any burst.

2) Paladins will still be vulnerable to crowd control (slightly less vulnerable if the paladin's teammates are cleansed enough to apply pressure or crowd control back)

3) Cleanse is still on a global cooldown, which though not major, can still build up to a decisive victory or decisive defeat if not used in a good situation (such as dispelling instead of healing, or healing instead of dispelling)

Here are some facts about how the four second cooldown can help paladins:

1) Paladins who can dodge crowd control effects are rewarded by being able to assist teammates in dispelling their CC.

2) Cleanse would help heal indirectly by cutting SOME DPS, such as shadow word: pain, frost bomb, frost nova, affliction warlock dots, death knight diseases, flame shock, moonkin druid dots.

Giving the paladin a shorter cleanse cooldown actually makes the paladin an even more attractive target to kill. This would mean that unless peels are properly coordinated (which are difficult against rogues) the paladin will still have to use a lot of valuable cooldowns to survive, thereby weakening them, and hampering their ability to heal their teammates later on in the fight.

I would show some charts and graphs and type out some further thought experiments to defend my argument but I am not being paid to do so, thus I will leave this idea here. Tear it, criticize it, or applaud it however you like.

Thank you for reading.

Edited by Aoedin, 12 April 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#105 salice

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:26 AM

View PostAoedin, on 12 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Thesis: Give paladin cleanse a four second cooldown and a lot of paladin issues will be solved.

By giving us the ability to cleanse more, we can prevent some CC and cut down certain comp's DPS. This will solve a lot of issues for paladins.

From my understanding, the change to cleanse is something that was meant to let players decide what to cleanse, instead of spamming it. However, there are just too many crowd control effects out there that affect not only the paladin but also her teammates. Fears, polymorph, counterspell, silence, strangulate, pet web, repentance, hammer  and fist of justice, freezing trap, frost nova, entangling roots, totem roots, chillblains, are just some of the effects that can mess up a paladin's teammates, especially since paladins are typically playing with hunters warriors or death knights.

To give cleanse a shorter cooldown will also mean the paladin has more opportunity to remove harmful debuffs like diseases and damage over time spells. This change will directly help how paladins can easily fall behind on healing. A shorter cleanse cooldown is not overpowered because shadow priests and affliction warlocks have dot protection.

I argue that by reducing cooldown on cleanse, it is not game breaking because:

1) Paladins are still vulnerable to being killed by just about any burst.

2) Paladins will still be vulnerable to crowd control (slightly less vulnerable if the paladin's teammates are cleansed enough to apply pressure or crowd control back)

3) Cleanse is still on a global cooldown, which though not major, can still build up to a decisive victory or decisive defeat if not used in a good situation (such as dispelling instead of healing, or healing instead of dispelling)

Here are some facts about how the four second cooldown can help paladins:

1) Paladins who can dodge crowd control effects are rewarded by being able to assist teammates in dispelling their CC.

2) Cleanse would help heal indirectly by cutting SOME DPS, such as shadow word: pain, frost bomb, frost nova, affliction warlock dots, death knight diseases, flame shock, moonkin druid dots.

Giving the paladin a shorter cleanse cooldown actually makes the paladin an even more attractive target to kill. This would mean that unless peels are properly coordinated (which are difficult against rogues) the paladin will still have to use a lot of valuable cooldowns to survive, thereby weakening them, and hampering their ability to heal their teammates later on in the fight.

I would show some charts and graphs and type out some further thought experiments to defend my argument but I am not being paid to do so, thus I will leave this idea here. Tear it, criticize it, or applaud it however you like.

Thank you for reading.

This is not what pallies need.  Plus vs some comps would be extremely broken.  

Tbh I feel like Sacred shield should be baseline and that'd help solve quite a bit of issues right there.  Freedom/Sac on short durations but non dispellable.

I haven't read through the thread before I posted so maybe it's already been said.

#106 Pradafiend

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostAoedin, on 12 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Thesis: Give paladin cleanse a four second cooldown and a lot of paladin issues will be solved.

no honey..just no

#107 Nightmonkey

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:45 AM

Let's get down to brass tacks - these are the reasons why Holy Paladins are underperforming in comparison to their peers.

Paladin Problems:

1) Paladins cannot survive quick swaps.  Especially when stunned or silenced.  Every other healer except Paladins has a built in mechanism to survive a quick switch.  Bubble is not a sufficient mechanism because of it's long cooldown and the fact that several classes can dispel it.

2) Paladins cannot keep their team alive if they get CC'd.  Other healers have tools which continue to work even when they cannot play their character.  Paladins do not.

3) Paladins have no reliable means of avoiding CC.  Hand of Sacrifice is consistently dispelled against good teams.  This problem is not exclusive to Paladins, but when combined with #2 things get ugly fast.

Possible Solutions

My suggestion for a solution that could be applied with a regular balance patch lies in modifying both talents and abilities.  The genie is out of the bottle when it comes to being able to use abilities while stunned/silenced and passive abilities being strong enough to keep you alive on a rough swap.  If removing other healers' abilities that fit Talbadar's description is on the table, I'm all for it.  Let them suffer as we suffer.  Otherwise, ease our pain.

1) Buff Sacred Shield and Eternal Flame.  These are our tools that keep working when we are CC'd.  These are the big ones, and they need help.  These serve to keep either our teammates or ourselves alive when somebody stops us from controlling our character.  I propose a glyph that would reduce the duration of Eternal Flame by 50% and increase it's healing by 100% or some other absurd amount.  

Maybe force Sacred Shield to proc every time the person who has it gets stunned/silenced.  Maybe make it scale 500% better with PvP Power.  Right now, quite frankly, Sacred Shield is underwhelming - and I used to absolutely love this ability.  I used to feel confident that if I had it on somebody and I got CC'd, they would have a much better chance at surviving than if I didn't have it on them.  Right now this talent is so miserable I can't tell the difference between using it and not using it.

These two abilities are what Holy Paladins are missing in PvP the most.  If they could be significantly improved for PvP, I think the following points would not be such a big deal.

2) Remove the 50% debuff from Divine Plea. This should be obvious.  As far as I know Druids don't suffer a debuff for using Innervate, Shaman don't suffer for using Mana Tide or Water Shield, and Priests don't suffer for using Shadow Fiend.  Those abilities can be countered - but so can Plea - you can just dispel it, so why the extra punishment?

3)  Give Paladins passive defenses.  Plate armor just isn't cutting it anymore.  I really think Paladins need something extra to help them live through swaps that come with stuns and/or silences.  Something similar to Nature's Guardian or Angelic Bulwark.  A little extra safety net for those Deep Freeze ----> Blanket CS swaps.

4) Some Paladin talents are just bad.  Unbreakable Spirit, Light's Hammer, Execution Sentence, and believe it or not - Holy Prism.  Unbreakable Spirit will never compete with Clemency in it's current form.  Light's Hammer and Execution Sentence have far too long of a cooldown for what they do for a Holy Paladin.  I would personally much rather use Execution Sentence instead of Holy Prism.  I hate Holy Prism because it breaks CC if I use it on a friendly target, and it is unreliable if I use it on an enemy target.  If I cast it at an enemy, sometimes they will just be too far away from my allies that no healing will be done.  I would like to see Execution Sentence with a 20 second cooldown for Holy.  This point also ties in with #1.

I think allowing Divine Protection to be used while stunned/silenced should just be baseline.  These are just suggestions I came up with off the top of my head after brainstorming for 5 minutes.  Doing all of them together would most likely end up making Paladins overpowered, but it is food for thought.

Edited by Nightmonkey, 14 April 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#108 salice

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:18 PM

View PostRegent, on 12 April 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

Well, its not looking good.

Apparently they are taking away 60k of our mana.

By your math you're saying 60k pool from Hybrids * 4 = 300?  

The formula goes 60k * (1 + 400/100) = 300

If anything they're taking 75k from our pool but in my opinion what they might be looking at is raising hybrid mana pool to 75k rather than reduce healer/caster mana pool.

#109 Regent

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

View Postsalice, on 12 April 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

By your math you're saying 60k pool from Hybrids * 4 = 300?  

The formula goes 60k * (1 + 400/100) = 300

If anything they're taking 75k from our pool but in my opinion what they might be looking at is raising hybrid mana pool to 75k rather than reduce healer/caster mana pool.

My bad, fixed.

#110 Nightmonkey

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:41 AM

Holinka tweeted that nothing is happening to mana pools in 5.3.

#111 Regent

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:06 AM

View PostNightmonkey, on 14 April 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Holinka tweeted that nothing is happening to mana pools in 5.3.

If that went through, Paladins would have less representation than priests did in in 5.0

#112 Mirionx

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

https://twitter.com/...218014575132672

!!!!!!!!!!!

#113 Gsgsgsgsgs

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

Ok...the only problem with pallys are that they are really susceptible to CC, and they just die if a mage deeps them. Saying that cleanse and their mana has to be addressed is actually borderline retarded.

Lower cool down on sac and make SS and ET stronger. I don't really like the idea of being able to wall during stuns or silences because it kind of takes away the skill of prewalling deeps and swaps; i think they should maybe buff the damage reduction from wall for Hpallys.

Also i was thinking about some kind of mix between MoU and NG, because i honestly think that if we had some ability that gave us some given extra health for a period of time would help us deal with silences out of deeps.

#114 Bamflol

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

Could abilities using holy power have a seperate global? Would sort of promote the use of skills rather than having to wait for fucking globals on every ability. I.e wog/templars verdict... Would sort of allow us to get some heals out in a timely matter. Or would this promote heals being op and burst for rets being too strong?

#115 Regent

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:15 PM

Make sac undispellable and 1.5 minute cd.

Change shield wall to 30%phys/30%magic reduction and allow you to use it while stunned (lol droods)

Boom, Paladins are playable again.

#116 Conviqx

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:01 PM

I think the changes hpala needs is a nerf to casters mainly

Edited by Conviqx, 14 April 2013 - 08:08 PM.

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#117 Aoedin

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:08 PM

Maybe shadow priest nerf will be an indirect buff to paladins and classes that play with paladins. Just being hopeful :)

#118 Nightmonkey

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:12 AM

View PostAoedin, on 14 April 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Maybe shadow priest nerf will be an indirect buff to paladins and classes that play with paladins. Just being hopeful :)

I think this will really help since you don't see Paladins playing with Spriests very often, but I don't think this alone is enough to really bring back Paladins.

I don't really agree with the idea that Paladins are fine and everybody else is too strong.  There would need to be a VAST amount of changes made to almost every class to bring Paladins back.  They could either take away a lot of stuns/silences and other instant CC, or they could just give Paladins a way to deal with them better.

Seems to me the easiest thing to do would be to make Paladins deal with the current meta game better instead of make every other class worse.

Let's not lose sight of the big picture though, healing on ANY class this season is utterly and completely miserable.  Paladins just happen to be one of the least suited to deal with the current metagame.

#119 Seu

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:22 AM

View PostNightmonkey, on 15 April 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

I think this will really help since you don't see Paladins playing with Spriests very often, but I don't think this alone is enough to really bring back Paladins.

I don't really agree with the idea that Paladins are fine and everybody else is too strong.  There would need to be a VAST amount of changes made to almost every class to bring Paladins back.  They could either take away a lot of stuns/silences and other instant CC, or they could just give Paladins a way to deal with them better.

Seems to me the easiest thing to do would be to make Paladins deal with the current meta game better instead of make every other class worse.

Let's not lose sight of the big picture though, healing on ANY class this season is utterly and completely miserable.  Paladins just happen to be one of the least suited to deal with the current metagame.

I disagree fully with that last line, I am actually having the easiest time healing on my dpriest since I started playing this game, because dpriest healing works really well with the current metagame. It IS especially bad for paladins.

Honestly holy paladins are really fun to play right now and they would be amazing if this was bc or wotlk, but the mechanics just flat out dont work with s13 mop arena.

Mop revolves around 100-0ing people inside long ccs or stuns on healers since every healer can keep a team up just fine in the absence of cc - meaning paladin's bursty healing just isnt that valuable anymore. The most valuable form of healing BY FAR in mop is healing and mitigation that is done while a healer is ccd, such as hots, shields, and earthshield (this is also why spriests are so valuable).

These days even with disc being so strong, I only really ever want to play my holy pally because its fun as fuck sprinting around and kicking people, repenting, blinding light, and even some decent burst for getting kills using denounce/shock/prism. Paladin has so much potential to be an incredibly fun offensive healing class with a high skillcap, but with what mists of pandara 3v3 has become the class healing mechanics just don't make sense anymore. Paladins current healing tools are just beyond overkill outside of cc and beyond useless during ccs. When you pop divine protection at 100% and die in a deep freeze that doesn't make sense. When you see a telegraphed swap with a telegraphed cc on you but there just isnt anything you can do to prepare for it outside of blowing a cooldown that doesnt make sense. When outside of those 100-0s you can easily shock flash wog anyone from dead to full that doesn't make any sense either.



TL;DR we do needless amounts of healing outside of cc and none inside of cc which is terrible design in s13 arena

#120 allana

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:55 PM

View PostConviqx, on 14 April 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

I think the changes hpala needs is a nerf to casters mainly

this has been the case since the inception of wow. The only time paladins reigned supreme was during the beta when they could stomp undead's relentlessly (and all casters horde side were undead) with turn undead and the like. After that, it's been pretty onesided :)
“As you think, you shall become.” -Pook




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