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#21 mukuld50

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:39 AM

Well here is the thing, I looked at D3 just like I look at any other single player game.  Bought Tomb Raider, loved it, beat it, wont ever play it again.  I guess for the majority mass, D3 expectations were different in terms of longevity.

Your sample size of 20 people is indeed really small - WoW still has 8-9 million people, 5-6 if you exclude crazy Chinamen I guess?

Edited by mukuld50, 03 April 2013 - 04:41 AM.


#22 Duckers

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:23 AM

Gamers are probably some of the most self-entitled people around these days if you ask me. Game sounds interesting, I'm glad it's not an FPS after all that talk a while back. Also that they're keeping the "Blizzard style graphics," which I dig. Can't wait for some concept art, or screenshots.

Pretty keen to see more details later this year / checking out Alpha.

Probably not a popular view, but I'm hoping it is semi-casual friendly and doesn't kick right off into a grindfest like early WoW. I had all the time in the world trawling through dungeons and collecting gear in 2007 but not nearly as much anymore. :(

#23 GrieverZ

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostDuckers, on 03 April 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Gamers are probably some of the most self-entitled people around these days if you ask me. Game sounds interesting, I'm glad it's not an FPS after all that talk a while back. Also that they're keeping the "Blizzard style graphics," which I dig. Can't wait for some concept art, or screenshots.

Pretty keen to see more details later this year / checking out Alpha.

Probably not a popular view, but I'm hoping it is semi-casual friendly and doesn't kick right off into a grindfest like early WoW. I had all the time in the world trawling through dungeons and collecting gear in 2007 but not nearly as much anymore. :(

Lots of people are in that case and i think Blizzard is aware of it, while i'm sure they're going to have hardcore content, the majority of the game is very likely to be acessible.

#24 Djandawg

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 05:56 AM

They released D3 at the state of a beta game, the game was borderline playable, which is strange because they had 10 years to finish the product.
They told people that they wanted pve to rule the game and didn't care about pvp....but the game had only a few classes and every class has had just only a few abilities, it remained imbalanced for a long time, that made people who didn't mind playing a buggy game quit.
The way they handled this, the changes they made on difficulty of the game were outrageous, loot system, ah dependency were so bad.
D3 was a beta copy of D2 with 2012 graphics and low content/story, that depended on AH and I am still pretty sure that everyone who bought this game, bought it because of the success of D2, they either played it or heard about it, or it was because of the annual pass.
It worries me a lot that Jay Wilson is part of the Titan's design team because I didn't quit D3 immediately,I was hopeful that Blizzard would save this great franchise and I witnessed every single step they took that broke the game more and more while trying to fix it. You can measure the actual success of D3 when no one buys the expansion, at least no one I know is going to buy it,it is kind of hard to destroy one of the best games in the history that hard.

Edited by Djandawg, 03 April 2013 - 06:07 AM.


#25 GrieverZ

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostDjandawg, on 03 April 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

They released D3 at the state of a beta game, the game was borderline playable, which is strange because they had 10 years to finish the product.
They told people that they wanted pve to rule the game and didn't care about pvp....but the game had only a few classes and every class has had just only a few abilities, it remained imbalanced for a long time, that made people who didn't mind playing a buggy game quit.
The way they handled this, the changes they made on difficulty of the game were outrageous, loot system, ah dependency were so bad.
D3 was a beta copy of D2 with 2012 graphics and low content/story, that depended on AH and I am still pretty sure that everyone who bought this game, bought it because of the success of D2, they either played it or heard about it, or it was because of the annual pass.
It worries me a lot that Jay Wilson is part of the Titan's design team because I didn't quit D3 immediately,I was hopeful that Blizzard would save this great franchise and I witnessed every single step they took that broke the game more and more while trying to fix it. You can measure the actual success of D3 when no one buys the expansion, at least no one I know is going to buy it,it is kind of hard to destroy one of the best games in the history that hard.

Its not hard to destroy something when you haven't been part of its success in the first place, Blizz North (D1/D2) was long gone from Blizzard and even the base they had built for the game has been scrapped by Wilson and his team, they rebuilt it from the ground up wich gave the result we've known. The only Diablo element that game had was the name and the name of the characters. They should had released the game under a different name honestly but i guess they couldn't pass on the opportunity to reaps the fruits of D2s reputation.

About D3s xpack, i won't buy it off the bat, i'll keep an eye on it to see if there's any chance redemption for the game but at this point it seems unlikely, specially considering the console port.

Edited by GrieverZ, 03 April 2013 - 06:20 AM.


#26 Thaya

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

I remember a blue post on D3 forums stating there's still over a million people coming online daily. D3 is always on the front page of twitch.tv as well with 3 to 7 thousand viewers. No matter what any of you say, it's among the most popular online games.

The only problem with D3 was that it was rushed. It wasn't as polished as every other Blizzard release was. Bugs, warping around mobs/corners/objects, Inferno extremely overtuned, magic/rare items being better than legendaries/sets, monster level not available (D2 had .players since release - the same function), nowhere to progress to after finishing Inferno, overall not enough content to please the crowd that enjoyed single player D2. Since release, they fixed all of those things (except content), but that could have been done with internal testing; do note that most of the fixes happened with Jay on the team. Also, D3 isn't even meant to have a huge player base: online ARPG is a niche genre, it's all based around grinding gear and not that many people actually enjoy that; they did genuinely fail to please the 'single player' crowd however with the short content and completely awful lore/writing/dialogues.

WoW still has nearly 10 million people playing it. There are new people coming in every single expansion, and by now I meet more people who joined the game in Cataclysm than in Vanilla, TBC or WotLK. It's also far from what you can call a "bad game". If that's what you think, you don't play other games.

Edited by Thaya, 03 April 2013 - 06:25 AM.

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#27 mukuld50

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostThaya, on 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

I remember a blue post on D3 forums stating there's still over a million people coming online daily. D3 is always on the front page of twitch.tv as well with 3 to 7 thousand viewers, always. No matter what any of you say, it's among the most popular online games.

The only problem with D3 was that it was rushed. It wasn't as polished as every other Blizzard release was. Bugs, warping around mobs/corners/objects, Inferno extremely overtuned, magic/rare items being better than legendaries/sets, monster level not available (D2 had .players since release - the same function), nowhere to progress to after finishing Inferno, overall not enough content to please the crowd that enjoyed single player D2. Since release, they fixed all of those things (except content), but that could have been done with internal testing; do note that most of the fixes happened with Jay on the team. Also, D3 isn't even meant to have a huge player base: online ARPG is a niche genre, it's all based around grinding gear and not that many people actually enjoy that; they did genuinely fail to please the 'single player' crowd however with the short content and completely awful lore/writing/dialogues.

WoW still has nearly 10 million people playing it. There are new people coming in every single expansion, and by now I meet more people who joined the game in Cataclysm than in Vanilla, TBC or WotLK. It's also far from what you can call a "bad game". If that's what you think, you don't play other games.

I am glad that at least one person agrees with me!

#28 Regent

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:25 AM

View PostThaya, on 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

I remember a blue post on D3 forums stating there's still over a million people coming online daily. D3 is always on the front page of twitch.tv as well with 3 to 7 thousand viewers, always. No matter what any of you say, it's among the most popular online games.

The only problem with D3 was that it was rushed. It wasn't as polished as every other Blizzard release was. Bugs, warping around mobs/corners/objects, Inferno extremely overtuned, magic/rare items being better than legendaries/sets, monster level not available (D2 had .players since release - the same function), nowhere to progress to after finishing Inferno. Since release, they fixed all of those things, but that could have been done with internal testing; do note that most of the fixes happened with Jay on the team. Also, D3 isn't even meant to have a huge player base: online ARPG is a niche genre, it's all based around grinding gear and not that many people actually enjoy that.

WoW still has nearly 10 million people playing it. There are new people coming in every single expansion, and by now I meet more people who joined the game in Cataclysm than in Vanilla, TBC or WotLK. It's also far from what you can call a "bad game". If that's what you think, you don't play other games.

The problem with WoWs player base is retention. They can't keep players and thats why they do all those tv ads and such. They realize that most people have either played wow, play it, or dont wish to play at all. It is ironic that the highest rate of growth for WoW was when the game was focused around the hardcore. Blizzard really screwed themselves by making it so much more casual.

I think Wildstar is doing a good job at making a TBC-like game. Learning from Blizzards mistakes.

The PvP community would (or would have, before holinka came along) jump ship the second a viable alternative came about. Even by Blizzards own numbers during cata, a lot of people PvP in WoW and they pretty much blew off half their players...

And on the D3 conversation, Im not saying it was terrible or there is nothing good there. I have a 200k monk that can solo mp8 so it would be hypocritical to say it was so bad I couldn't play it. The main problem with D3 came from Blizzards horrible lack of planning. Launch was pretty bad, EA-level bad. The early game was fun when you could log in and play without lagging out. The end game literally hadnt been tested, even some of the devs admitted to not being able to clear it. When only 1 out of 4 classes can even be played at max level, you screwed up bad. Why did it take so long for simple changes? Why isn't PVP in the game, 10 months after it was promised? The list could go on.

Starcraft 2, on the other hand, has done nothing but impress me. Maybe a little over-zealous on buffing/nerfing but overall just an amazing game.

Edited by Regent, 03 April 2013 - 06:29 AM.


#29 GrieverZ

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:26 AM

View PostThaya, on 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

The only problem with D3 was that it was rushed. It wasn't as polished as every other Blizzard release was. Bugs, warping around mobs/corners/objects, Inferno extremely overtuned, magic/rare items being better than legendaries/sets, monster level not available (D2 had .players since release - the same function), nowhere to progress to after finishing Inferno. Since release, they fixed all of those things, but that could have been done with internal testing; do note that most of the fixes happened with Jay on the team. Also, D3 isn't even meant to have a huge player base: online ARPG is a niche genre, it's all based around grinding gear and not that many people actually enjoy that.


I've seen the fixes, they literally copy/pasted some of D2s elements in hope to save the game, the torch quest, the levelling grind (Paragon levels, wich is meaningless without ladders anyway). Not what i'd call fixes, more like bandaids. I guess a million player isn't bad, until you realise it sold 13million boxes and the game isn't a year old.

D2 managed to keep a playerbase for close to 10years in an era where online gaming was just blooming and was still considered a niche hobby, its not even comparable.

#30 Regent

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostGrieverZ, on 03 April 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

[/size]

I've seen the fixes, they literally copy/pasted some of D2s elements in hope to save the game, the torch quest, the levelling grind (Paragon levels, wich is meaningless without ladders anyway). Not what i'd call fixes, more like bandaids. I guess a million player isn't bad, until you realise it sold 13million boxes and the game isn't a year old.

D2 managed to keep a playerbase for close to 10years in an era where online gaming was just blooming and was still considered a niche hobby, its not even comparable.

I also don't think there is any way in hell that 1 million people play a day. When there is only 1k people in public games at primetime, there is no way that 1 million people play a day. Maybe like 500k bots, and 500k actual players?

#31 Djandawg

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostThaya, on 03 April 2013 - 06:18 AM, said:

I remember a blue post on D3 forums stating there's still over a million people coming online daily. D3 is always on the front page of twitch.tv as well with 3 to 7 thousand viewers. No matter what any of you say, it's among the most popular online games.

WoW still has nearly 10 million people playing it. There are new people coming in every single expansion, and by now I meet more people who joined the game in Cataclysm than in Vanilla, TBC or WotLK. It's also far from what you can call a "bad game". If that's what you think, you don't play other games.
D3 is usually not on the front page and hovers around 500-1k viewers depending on if a famous streamer is online or not. Right now, they got 900 viewers and are not on the front page. I find 1 million people connecting to d3 every day tragically off too, because I got tons of die hard Diablo fans, casual gamers etc on my friend list, I usually see 0/50 of them online playing D3.

If you consider the fact that the game is the successor of a product that had tons of content, amazing story, characters, mob types, classes etc and that D3 has been released by a multi million dollar company like Blizzard, it should be trivial to anyone that it's kind of hard to make a really "bad game".
Yet, they managed to destroy the franchise, I can't find the link but I read somwhere that the amount of people who actively play D3 is close to D2.
And the point in this thread is, the guy responsible of doing so is part of the Titan's design team.

Edited by Djandawg, 03 April 2013 - 06:55 AM.


#32 Thaya

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:37 AM

View PostRegent, on 03 April 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:



The problem with WoWs player base is retention. They can't keep players and thats why they do all those tv ads and such. They realize that most people have either played wow, play it, or dont wish to play at all. It is ironic that the highest rate of growth for WoW was when the game was focused around the hardcore. Blizzard really screwed themselves by making it so much more casual.

I think Wildstar is doing a good job at making a TBC-like game. Learning from Blizzards mistakes.

The PvP community would (or would have, before holinka came along) jump ship the second a viable alternative came about. Even by Blizzards own numbers during cata, a lot of people PvP in WoW and they pretty much blew off half their players...
The peak of WoW subscription count was actually in WotLK, when it wasn't all that hardcore.

The PvP community was "jumping ship" like 3 times just from what I can remember, and most of the "jumpers" are still posting here.

View PostGrieverZ, on 03 April 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

I've seen the fixes, they literally copy/pasted some of D2s elements in hope to save the game, the torch quest, the levelling grind (Paragon levels, wich is meaningless without ladders anyway). Not what i'd call fixes, more like bandaids. I guess a million player isn't bad, until you realise it sold 13million boxes and the game isn't a year old.

D2 managed to keep a playerbase for close to 10years in an era where online gaming was just blooming and was still considered a niche hobby, its not even comparable.
Do you think D2 online player base was anywhere near a million? It was probably less than 100k. (Do note I'm talking ONLY about Battle.net online D2.)

Not to mention that less than halfway of those 10 years, the game switched into a barter economy simulator where you just bot for gear and then trade it on jsp.

D3 progress is actually based on MP levels. Ultimately your aim is to get enough gear/plvl to be able to farm MP10 relatively quick/safely, where your magic find % is so high that legendaries drop frequently and that's where you start getting the 'real' items. I actually sort of like the way they build D3 progress, but an idea used in PoE is fucking amazing and is what I think will change ARPG: temporary events/leagues/races.
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#33 mukuld50

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostRegent, on 03 April 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

The problem with WoWs player base is retention. They can't keep players and thats why they do all those tv ads and such.

ads are just marketing man lol, this statement is really silly.  I agree with the first part about retention, but yeah tv ads have nothing to do with the retention rate or anything

Edit: I mean TV ads to help in retention rates, but the reason why advertisement exists is not because of what you said solely

Edited by mukuld50, 03 April 2013 - 06:44 AM.


#34 Tsx

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:03 AM

View PostRegent, on 03 April 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

People play WoW not because its good, but because it was good at one point and it is habit. All the other MMOs that try to overtake it are rushed and can never give enough content.

From a technical standpoint, Blizzard makes the best games in the industry hands down. From a story/gameplay perspective, they are extremely lacking.
wow is the best mmo game and it will always be.

#35 Nadagast

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:41 AM

As long as we're talking about MMOs: http://www.kickstart...melot-unchained

Spiritual successor to DAoC, one of the best MMOs (maybe the best?) ever made for PvP.  I quit vanilla WoW to go back to DAoC.

Also, I don't really have time to write out a huge post right now about D3, but I think it failed much more in the soul department than in the 'buggyness/nowhere-to-progress/etc' area, that Thaya is saying tanked the game.  I could go on and on about this, but I'm going to sleep.  :)  Maybe tomorrow.

Edited by Nadagast, 03 April 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#36 Thaya

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:49 AM

View PostNadagast, on 03 April 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Also, I don't really have time to write out a huge post right now about D3, but I think it failed much more in the soul department than in the 'buggyness/nowhere-to-progress/etc' area, that Thaya is saying tanked the game.  I could go on and on about this, but I'm going to sleep.  :)  Maybe tomorrow.
I know exactly what you're talking about, but I personally can easily get past this if the gameplay is good enough. D3 is an example, I'll probably buy the expansion. WoW is an example, this game doesn't feel like a journey for several expansions anymore yet I still play it.

My heart bled when I played SC2:WoL and I didn't even buy HotS. What they did to SC lore is unforgivable and I don't have the time to become good at ladder, I pretty much care just about the single player part of it. WoL ruined the franchise for me.



Speaking of Blizzard's writing/lore... Play their old games, pre WoW/Activision. SC and SC:BW were my favorite, but all 3 franchises had GREAT lore and writing. Even vanilla WoW had several quest arcs that I truly enjoyed reading and playing through. The sad thing is that it's the same people credited for the story/lore in credits to old games and new games, which makes you wonder what happened (Activision happened).

Also, just remembered a great spin-off of the Ashbringer lore. Must watch if you haven't seen it before. Absolutely great machinima movie - the attention to detail is amazing.
Spoiler

Edited by Thaya, 03 April 2013 - 11:12 AM.

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#37 Djandawg

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostNadagast, on 03 April 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:


Spiritual successor to DAoC, one of the best MMOs (maybe the best?) ever made for PvP.  I quit vanilla WoW to go back to DAoC.

Ultima Online the Second Age(or any version prior to Age of Shadows) was released in 1998 and had the best pvp by far.

#38 McMick1137

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:35 AM

View Postmukuld50, on 03 April 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

And for the record - I never played Diablo 2; bought Diablo 3, and extremely enjoyed it till I beat Diablo on Inferno difficulty.  After which it was boring/repetitive to me.

Am I like the only person who liked Diablo 3?  I am sure that it was a huge disappointment compared to what Diablo 2 set for standards and expectations, but I dont know, I still enjoyed the story line/hack and slash gamestyle/playing a barbarian and trying to figure out optimal gear so i could do inferno (though yeah buying gold from friends just so i could AH the shit out of everything was not enjoyable)

I fucking loved D3 on my WD up until I had killed Diablo on Inferno for the first time (took almost 20 mins because he would one shot me with anything that did damage, would only survive if I had Cheat Death available).
It was a great game for the first 3 weeks really. Then Diablo died and I never really did anything but play AH in between arena queues.
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#39 Evolute

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:36 AM

Thank god it's not a FPS, if this is true. That actually makes me excited.

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#40 dionim

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:07 PM

they removed the will to play the game when it became casual

everyone that played wow in vanilha/bc/wotlk, at some point played it to get purples/tittles/mount/look better than the others, now that everyone can have the same rewards that you have in a short time, many people lost their will to play it continously




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