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#1 kazuhmeer

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:59 AM

Topics self explanatory, how are you guys playing talent/glyph wise against really any wizard cleaves.


My default spec is warbringer with blitz/leap/bull rush glyphed, but they change game to game more or less.

Against almost every spell cleave I'm specing Juggernaut, dropping Blitz for MS glyph and sometimes dropping bull rush for spell reflection depending on the match up, i.e. queing into the same spell cleave that always goes warrior.  Disrupting shout is basically mandatory in my opinion.

As far as playstyle is concerned, I play WPS and we basically train the mage the entire game looking for swaps onto the healer.  However, games are extremely situational  as a warrior vs wizards.  We've adopted the "50 yard line approach", any caster pushing into our team we push right back out.  Spriests going for a fear are a big one, just charge/hamstring buys your healer enough time to not eat that fear and waste tremor.  

As I said above we sit mage a lot, reasoning being most mages we encounter around 2300+ all run frost bomb and stopping bombs is the single most important thing you can do as a warrior.  Incanters+Icy Veins+Trinket means a 1 shot on the orb/bomb or burning a major defensive like swap or link.  Using reflect on almost cooldown is equally important.  

Often times I see a scenario like a swap onto my spriest or shaman, so I kick the bomb cast.  Mage will pet nova me, sheep healer, and start casting a bomb into me.  Assuming disrupting shout is down its so so imperative to reflect that bomb, or at least make him use 1 more global on lance to eat the reflect.  Buying that 1.5s of time on your healers sheep is pretty critical, thats enough time for your spriest to MD or just try to out last the bad situation you're in with a healer in CC.  

Using safeguard effectively is also one of the most important things we can do as warriors.  Safeguarding during a deep for the 20% is beyond huge, or clearing roots offensively for a big kill.  Also, remember to drop demo flag during a mage icy veins / warlocks demon soul, its only 10% but you need all the help you can get.  

I don't think the solution is definite and depends on every match up and how its played but I'm really looking for any suggestions on how you guys play against wizards, its our only really brutal match besides RPS and the better thug cleaves.  



#2 Braindance

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:03 AM

It makes almost no difference how you glyph and how you spec - you will die eventually. Although, since you have a shaman and sp carrying you you might win. Just stick really close to pillars and never go out; let them come to you.

Resilience won't save you - any godcomp or spell cleave above 2.2-2.3k can kill you through all your cds if they get one cc on your shaman. Then again, you play with equally scummish classes so the sp might save you.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#3 kazuhmeer

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:22 AM

View PostBraindance, on 28 March 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

It makes almost no difference how you glyph and how you spec - you will die eventually. Although, since you have a shaman and sp carrying you you might win. Just stick really close to pillars and never go out; let them come to you.

Resilience won't save you - any godcomp or spell cleave above 2.2-2.3k can kill you through all your cds if they get one cc on your shaman. Then again, you play with equally scummish classes so the sp might save you.

Aren't you the one championing the idea of improving AJ, then make moronic posts like this?  Try to be constructive instead of just fucking whining and making excuses jesus christ.

#4 Braindance

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:25 AM

View Postkazuhmeer, on 28 March 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Aren't you the one championing the idea of improving AJ, then make moronic posts like this?  Try to be constructive instead of just fucking whining and making excuses jesus christ.
I don't wanna turn this into a flame war so I will restrain myself (for now). I did not whine - I even told you what to do.

And the obvious fact that you are getting blown up as soon as they land a single cc on your healer from 100-0% is not an excuse; it's the bitter truth.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#5 leek

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:21 AM

just hang out in Dstance when you smell a deep and accept the fact that in the current meta you wont be able to do pressure when deep is off CD (speaking of vs mage teams then, ofc), helps a bit atleast and might make the difference

#6 ardnut

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostBraindance, on 28 March 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

I don't wanna turn this into a flame war so I will restrain myself (for now). I did not whine - I even told you what to do.

And the obvious fact that you are getting blown up as soon as they land a single cc on your healer from 100-0% is not an excuse; it's the bitter truth.

I'm sorry braindance but he is right.  He's looking for constructive help not whining about the current state of the game.

I haven't been playing 3's this season yet as much Resto shaman friend has gone AWOL cuz of work.  I would like to try and be helpful, but you seem to be doing all you can.  All I can suggest is posting some videos in here and people might be able to suggest some tips.
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#7 joefernandes

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:03 PM

you should try to use reflect for deep / bomb  when u see it coming (can usually see opposite good wizcleaves setting it up via silence on your healer n CCing your dps) if u fail to do so just leap back to your healer / out of the way of damage, Leap is so good surviving vs casters and its the same CD as deep Freeze

Maybe tunneling the mage isnt the best way to do pressure outside of deeps (i know frostbomb is retarded but you have SP MD + rshammy groundings + shocks + normal dispel too for them) could try switching to another caster that takes more damage or can't kite as much as a mage (blazing speed mages can be anoying to keep up on)

but yer stuff like godcomp is really hard now compared to last season as WPS

#8 Durial

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

View Postjoefernandes, on 28 March 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

you should try to use reflect for deep / bomb  when u see it coming (can usually see opposite good wizcleaves setting it up via silence on your healer n CCing your dps) if u fail to do so just leap back to your healer / out of the way of damage, Leap is so good surviving vs casters and its the same CD as deep Freeze

Maybe tunneling the mage isnt the best way to do pressure outside of deeps (i know frostbomb is retarded but you have SP MD + rshammy groundings + shocks + normal dispel too for them) could try switching to another caster that takes more damage or can't kite as much as a mage (blazing speed mages can be anoying to keep up on)

but yer stuff like godcomp is really hard now compared to last season as WPS

Good god comps will deep you as they CS as it's off the global. No good god comp will make it obvious when you're about to get deeped till the second you're in a deep and there's a silence on your healer. So reflecting deeps is pretty much a 1 in 10, even when you do expect it (normally a good sign is when his got frozen orb out) but even then it's still not easy to reflect it.

I haven't played this season but you should try enraged regeneration, second wind ticks for fuck all when you get 100-0'd in a deep, so your best bet is enraged regen which is like an extra 45k HP in 3seconds or whatever.

#9 joefernandes

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:18 PM

View PostDurial, on 28 March 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Good god comps will deep you as they CS as it's off the global. No good god comp will make it obvious when you're about to get deeped till the second you're in a deep and there's a silence on your healer. So reflecting deeps is pretty much a 1 in 10, even when you do expect it (normally a good sign is when his got frozen orb out) but even then it's still not easy to reflect it.

I haven't played this season but you should try enraged regeneration, second wind ticks for fuck all when you get 100-0'd in a deep, so your best bet is enraged regen which is like an extra 45k HP in 3seconds or whatever.

yer enraged regen might be good but cant imagine doing damage without second wind rage regen, and well hence why i commented on leap since u can leap same time u reflect, if u dont reflect the deep or frostbomb

#10 Kerzen

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

MM yeah totally agreed there with joe, that's how you should do it, yeah.

#11 djp771133

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:06 PM

just kill the spriest... Didn't ya'll watch lawlsnoballz 2?

Edited by djp771133, 29 March 2013 - 01:07 PM.


#12 Pritchard

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 11:25 PM

Quote

It makes almost no difference how you glyph and how you spec - you will die eventually.

If that wasn't your first sentence, people wouldn't have misunderstood it for a whine post.  Although you did give tips in the same post, if people don't look past that sentence, or let the sentence determine their mood for the post, this thread is what happens.

However, back on topic, if you go battle stance when deep is down, you will be able to put out a lot more pressure, and just go d stance and  play a little more passive and pool some rage when deep is back up.  I personally don't think going mage is the best option, as I would personally rather have the priest not be able to put much damage out as frost bombs are pretty easily handled with via grounding/shock/dispel.  I would swap between spriest/sham, if the shaman is playing all the way back, swap mage if he burns a blink or over extends to get cc off.  Hope this helps!  It's going to be a tough match up.

#13 xandek

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:37 PM

ive been using ms glpyh> bull rush as my standard since 5.2

#14 kazuhmeer

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 07:01 AM

View Postxandek, on 30 March 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

ive been using ms glpyh> bull rush as my standard since 5.2

Its at the point where its now my default, just nice having bull rush for the rage starvation that is defensive stance.  playing without MS glyph just doesn't really seem optional anymore.


edit:  Speaking of glyphs, assuming leap and MS, 3rd glyph against wizards?  I feel like blitz is a waste playing juggernaut.  Spell reflect is a crap shoot and long charge is worthless (imo).

double edit:  For people saying go spriest, we tried that in the past and just got raped (the only time I go on him is to stop insanity).  The reason for stopping the bombs that we cant get via shocks/grounding is as soon as mages get a bomb to stick a blanket on shaman + 1 cc on spriest means someone can be dead.  I'm not having issues with 2k shitters, its the 2400+ teams that actually bind keys that are hard matchups.

Edited by kazuhmeer, 31 March 2013 - 07:09 AM.


#15 Crankyboern

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:31 AM

As i got somewhat of experience in this as WLD i thought of this one:
1. Play defensive until bomb / deep is down.
2. Save all your offensive Cds.
3. Try to mongo their healer with all cooldown (Bladestorm etc. + cc on mage)
4. Go hug a pillar until cds are back up
5. repeat forever.

Thats how we played it as WLD and it can actually be fun to kite those casting Potters round a pillar for 3 minutes until you go ballz again ;)

Hope this might work ...

PS: evetually you get a kill while fighting at the pillar - LoS with a good fear can kill shit ;P

#16 Saregar

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 01:28 PM

View Postkazuhmeer, on 28 March 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Topics self explanatory, how are you guys playing talent/glyph wise against really any wizard cleaves.


My default spec is warbringer with blitz/leap/bull rush glyphed, but they change game to game more or less.

Against almost every spell cleave I'm specing Juggernaut, dropping Blitz for MS glyph and sometimes dropping bull rush for spell reflection depending on the match up, i.e. queing into the same spell cleave that always goes warrior.  Disrupting shout is basically mandatory in my opinion.

As far as playstyle is concerned, I play WPS and we basically train the mage the entire game looking for swaps onto the healer.  However, games are extremely situational  as a warrior vs wizards.  We've adopted the "50 yard line approach", any caster pushing into our team we push right back out.  Spriests going for a fear are a big one, just charge/hamstring buys your healer enough time to not eat that fear and waste tremor.  

As I said above we sit mage a lot, reasoning being most mages we encounter around 2300+ all run frost bomb and stopping bombs is the single most important thing you can do as a warrior.  Incanters+Icy Veins+Trinket means a 1 shot on the orb/bomb or burning a major defensive like swap or link.  Using reflect on almost cooldown is equally important.  

Often times I see a scenario like a swap onto my spriest or shaman, so I kick the bomb cast.  Mage will pet nova me, sheep healer, and start casting a bomb into me.  Assuming disrupting shout is down its so so imperative to reflect that bomb, or at least make him use 1 more global on lance to eat the reflect.  Buying that 1.5s of time on your healers sheep is pretty critical, thats enough time for your spriest to MD or just try to out last the bad situation you're in with a healer in CC.  

Using safeguard effectively is also one of the most important things we can do as warriors.  Safeguarding during a deep for the 20% is beyond huge, or clearing roots offensively for a big kill.  Also, remember to drop demo flag during a mage icy veins / warlocks demon soul, its only 10% but you need all the help you can get.  

I don't think the solution is definite and depends on every match up and how its played but I'm really looking for any suggestions on how you guys play against wizards, its our only really brutal match besides RPS and the better thug cleaves.    

ok so, the things you shloud be doing are:

spec every single time (no exeptions):
double time with: glyph of leap, glyph of bull rush and glyph of hamstring (you can change glyph of hamstring for mortal strike, sometimes,
ie vs a mage with nether tempest, etc.)

only comp that rly works for warrior nowdays is wms or wmpriest.
but as wps aswell, you shloud be doing the same thing vs godcomp:
push to their shaman with orbs + shockwave/silence. you will force some of their defensives.
than literarly run back to the pillar across the map, and turtle again till your orbs/stuns come back up from cooldown.
you can do the same thing on mage or sp, depending on the situation, but its most beneficial to you on shaman.

#17 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:46 PM

As for me, I go all out offensive even against spell cleaves.  I counter their offensive cd with my offensive cd/trinket/rallying/dbts and I leave the rest of my survival to my great healers :)  I don't try to drag the games as others mentioned in the earlier posts.  Rather, I try to finish the game while me and my teammates have our cd to do so.  I can do the dragging game but that is just not my style.  I consider it smart but the same time, it's super boring and do we all play arena just to win?  Not for fun?

Anywayz, back to our topic...
So far, my experience this season has been 2300+ with sham kfc, 2200+ with pala kitty, and 2100+ war/rogue/sham(disc) and 2200+ with TSG in US Tichondrius.  I'm talking MMR wise, so please don't come back to me saying like oh your current rating is blah blah blah...  I team-hop almost everyday with diferrent setups and team members just so I can keep playing arena whenever I can.

Now, I have tried the defensive approach to my warror play this season yes, just like all you fellow warriors out there due to our reduced survivability.  I have tried MS glyph and OP(DBTS) glyph both and the good old Spell Reflect glyph against spell cleaves.

OP glyph actually works quite nicely against melee cleaves that tunnel you.  You can increase DBTS length to almost 20 sec by simply stacking 5 OP then pop DBTS, and 3 OP, MS and repeat.  But vs spell cleaves well... you will still die in it.  You should def still use it because it helps a bit just like the demo banner.  But no reason to glyph it.  Also, I don't find myself losing to melee cleaves that tunnel me hardly ever so this glyph is useless in my situation.  Altho it is a very good defensive addon we have in our option.

MS glyph is all around nice passive glyph that helps your survival yes but it really doesn't do anything in times of your desperate moment trying to survive from spell cleaves while your healer is in cc.  I find the spell reflect glyph pretty much the same thing... 5 sec reduction from 25 sec cd, great~  It won't save you though.  What actually works for survival in my opinion is the shield wall glyph since you only get to use it once in the arena game and 20% extra damage reduction is pretty huge.

Now the comp!  It doesn't have to be a spell cleave, any comp with mage in it possesses a great danger to our survivibility especially if you aren't playing with a hunter for the simple fact that hunters put out so much pressure on mages so you can pretty much tunnel the mage while your hunter does double cc on mage's healer and his sp buddy.  Also giving you freedom and sac on demand.  If you are sick and tired of losing to mage comps, play the KFC and problem solved.  If you play KFC and still lose, just blame your fingers for it and get better.
Other comps that may stand a chance vs mage comps is war/sp/heal or war/ret/heal because of your improved survival from their off-heal and their utility to help your healer not getting cced for long.

Now with play style~  You can try playing defensive style everytime when mage is holding onto his deep.  Something like playing in d-stance, while not overextending yourself to chase after mage or whatever, staying in your healer's los and keeping you above 70% health.  Only go all out offensive once the mage has used the deep and his cds.
This tactic does work vs mediocre mage teams until you meet a glad rating mage teams that just never deeps you until the right moment.  They make sure they get either trinket or defensive cd from you and/or your parnters and they try to repeat the same thing with every deep freeze they get.  Shit, they will hold onto their deep for another 30 sec after it comes back on cooldown just so they can deep you at the right time.  You can survive 5~6 deep freezes in the game by playing the defensive style with awesome teamwork but at the end, if you are playing the defensive style for the most time as a warrior, it becomes very hard for you to score a kill.  Because let's say, you survive mage's cd by playing defensive somehow and you try to go offensive after and then you are off their cc dr and they can just cc you with roots/poly/even fear and soon they will get their cd to global you again.  GG.

I pretty much gave up on defensive style of warrior play when I pre-walled mage/sp's burst attempt in the open before the deep came with rallying cry up and still died like a fly while my healer was blanket silenced. :)  I tried leaping and intervening their burst attempt in d-stance with reflect up hugging the pilar next to my healer and ov cos, I yell out to my healer that I can gibbed anytime soon becase the mage is holding onto his deep and he is just looking for his chance to set it up on me.  I make sure my teammates know that it's coming like at least 3~4 seconds before it hits me.  Yes, I can survive more deep this way but it's never enuf to score a kill especially vs godcomps.

What I have been trying lately is going all out offensive no matter whatever comps I face.  Below is the glyph I use for the type of comps I face.

Melee cleaves - Blitz/Bull Rush/Colossus Smash (or Death From Above depending on the armor level of opponent comps)
Tip is saving 30 rage to have sweeping strikes up almost always.  You will put out so much more pressure this way.

Melee/Caster(or Ranged) - Bull Rush/Colossus Smash (or Rude Interruption)/Death From Above.  If you are going to be training classes with difficult time kiting you like lock and SP, Rude Interruption!!!!  6% damage boost is pretty much up the whole game if you are good at interrupting.

Harry Potters - Bull Rush/Death From Above/Rude Interruption.  I pretty much try to train the SP/lock/healer of the mage comp and only interrupt mage's cc attempt and bombs with the same type of effort from my teammates.  I put out so much pressure on them compare to when I try to train on mage.  6% damage boost from rude interruption is huge, I'm sure you guys are aware of this.

Talents I use are juggernaut/second wind/piercing howl/shockwave/safeguard/avatar most of the time. I try not to use avatar mindlessly just to burst but use it also as a root breaker when I can. Having an extra root breaker vs mage comps is a huge plus.

Right now, you will die to spell cleaves as a warrior if your healer eats cc without a way out and once you and/or your healers cds are used no matter how defensive you try to play.  Braindance actually brought up a valid point on that.  I don't think he was whining.  That's just how the game is atm and it may change with 5.3 buffs that we are receiving.

However, the solution I have found from my arena experience this season is finish the opponent before you and your teammate trinket/cd runs out.  Train the class you are best at training (SP,Lock,Healer) and put out maximum pressure all the time.  Pressure is all we've got now.  We no longer have the utility or the survival we had last season.  Nothing else we can bring to the table but the single target pressure and execute to finish off the target.  So if you lose even that as a warrior, you will have no place in the arena.  That's just my opinion.

Now if you play the comp that is more dependent on your partner class such as KFC, war/mage/heal, war/sp/heal.  The same rule may not apply to the same extent.  But it is indeed very difficult to survive the spell cleave atm by playing the long game.

#18 kazuhmeer

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:00 PM

Not going to quote the entire post, lots of good thoughts there though.  The only match where we seriously do no pressure is against good thug cleaves, we play on the defensive the entire game and the disc eventually runs out of mana, but yeah I feel you that you have to get some momentum back just to make teams get off the warrior for 5 seconds.  It feels like once warrior teams lose momentum its damn near impossible to swing it back.

#19 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:22 PM

Nice, can we stray away from insulting people when posting.  That'd be hella rad, cheers

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#20 Zaephyr

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:21 AM

View PostSykeasaurus, on 01 April 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Nice, can we stray away from insulting people when posting.  That'd be hella rad, cheers

your new hair looks hella sexy
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