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#101 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:38 PM

You can stop with the back and forth insulting.  Man I wish BG forums were still active, at least it was generally assumed you could go at each other w/o much worry.  Doesn't need to be in the general discussion area, though.

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


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I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#102 Drake

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostLolflay, on 02 April 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Reason was that games like CS, SC, League are infinitely easier to get in to while having higher skill cap than WoW does
I've had this debate like a gazillion times but I'll have to ask again, while leaving SC out of the question.

How does a point and click strategy game in which you only utilize 4 abilites plus an "item provided ability" here and there have a higher skill cap than a game with cca 10x that many abilities + much more complex movement and positioning?

How does a game that literally only needs you to point your mouse precisely really fast have a higher skill cap than a game where you have to do pretty much the same, but with numerous abilities while also having much higher awareness of what's happening on screen as opposed to basically clicking left mouse button anytime something moves in an FPS.

To clarify, I don't want to argue or flame, I seriously don't care much about the perceived skill cap of individual video games. I'm just curious as to why a considerably large crowd of people thinks that WoW has a low skill cap as opposed to FPS games or "one toon" strategy games. Can't be only because its an MMO and thus never will be properly balanced, or can it?

On a side note, I agree with the rest of your post.

#103 Hofflerand

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:58 AM

There's a lot more to CS than aiming, Drake. I agree the skill required to play LoL is relatively low. It seems to be more about a deep knowledge of champions, items, etc. The actual laning and team fights don't impress me all that much (that said, I'd get obliterated by the best players).

The problem with WoW PvP is success is more often than not based on FotM rather than skill. And MoP placed too heavy a focus on instant CC, burst CD's, and offensive CD's. Too simplified.

StarCraft definitely takes the most skill because it requires a lot of everything. WoW doesn't take great mouse precision, but CS and SC do. CS doesn't require a bunch of hot-keys and good hot-key management, but WoW and SC do. Etc. The only thing SC lacks is teamwork, but I assume we're talking individual skill.

#104 kazuhmeer

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:07 AM

View PostDrake, on 02 April 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

I've had this debate like a gazillion times but I'll have to ask again, while leaving SC out of the question.

How does a point and click strategy game in which you only utilize 4 abilites plus an "item provided ability" here and there have a higher skill cap than a game with cca 10x that many abilities + much more complex movement and positioning?

How does a game that literally only needs you to point your mouse precisely really fast have a higher skill cap than a game where you have to do pretty much the same, but with numerous abilities while also having much higher awareness of what's happening on screen as opposed to basically clicking left mouse button anytime something moves in an FPS.

To clarify, I don't want to argue or flame, I seriously don't care much about the perceived skill cap of individual video games. I'm just curious as to why a considerably large crowd of people thinks that WoW has a low skill cap as opposed to FPS games or "one toon" strategy games. Can't be only because its an MMO and thus never will be properly balanced, or can it?

On a side note, I agree with the rest of your post.

its been said 5 times but its worth reposting i guess

mostly its because wow is so insanely complicated without a good medium to spectate, since blizzard neglected to add in a spectator mode.

#105 Lolflay

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:38 AM

View PostShouri, on 02 April 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

damn it's hard to believe i find myself agreeing with a lolflay post

:mellow:

View PostDrake, on 02 April 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

I've had this debate like a gazillion times but I'll have to ask again, while leaving SC out of the question.

How does a point and click strategy game in which you only utilize 4 abilites plus an "item provided ability" here and there have a higher skill cap than a game with cca 10x that many abilities + much more complex movement and positioning?

How does a game that literally only needs you to point your mouse precisely really fast have a higher skill cap than a game where you have to do pretty much the same, but with numerous abilities while also having much higher awareness of what's happening on screen as opposed to basically clicking left mouse button anytime something moves in an FPS.

To clarify, I don't want to argue or flame, I seriously don't care much about the perceived skill cap of individual video games. I'm just curious as to why a considerably large crowd of people thinks that WoW has a low skill cap as opposed to FPS games or "one toon" strategy games. Can't be only because its an MMO and thus never will be properly balanced, or can it?

On a side note, I agree with the rest of your post.

I won't talk about rewards here, as really anyone can either buy a boost or exploit the ladder system to get what he wants ( this applies for both games, and this applies for pretty much any reward except tournament ryze skin, even though that is easily achievable as well ), and I'll talk only about "skill".

WoW is pure muscle memory. Your eyes see something ? Your fingers automatically react without thinking. Once you memorise what you need to do in a certain occasion, you're going to do it every single time without much thinking. Basically you behave like a automaton and collect easy points. It carried me multiple times to 3k MMR/2.8k+ team rating in non MMR-inflated seasons, so I think my opinion is valid here.

League ? The only thing that even resembles WoW automatism is minion farming. Everything else is active and requires constant measurement, ranging from warding, extending in lane for minions/player kills, towards game objectives, etc etc. You can't get good at one champion and let your skill at that champ carry you, and that's not what the game is about anyway. When I picked up League, I thought that the game was super easy, had no real depth and no real skill requirement - I was obviously wrong. The "skill grinding" segment of the game is much more complicated than WoW. WoW you just keep playing and you'll eventually be at the top of food chain if you're not mentally impaired, while you could play League for 10+ years and still not get anywhere if you aren't actively thinking about areas where you need improving on.

Also I've been playing with some former multi-glads/r1s who can't pass gold for their life, I barely passed to diamond on my main.

Game knowledge and muscle memory carry everyone in WoW - those things do squat shit in League.

Edited by Lolflay, 09 December 2013 - 10:02 AM.

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#106 Theles

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:39 AM

View PostLolflay, on 03 April 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Game knowledge and muscle memory carry everyone in WoW - those things do squat shit in League.

Good post but this kinda caught my eye. I'd say game knowledge is the most important skill in League. Knowing the range and cd(maybe manacost too) of skills from enemy champions is kinda must.

Edited by Theles, 03 April 2013 - 03:40 AM.


#107 GrieverZ

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:37 AM

Never really understood the whole "wow is too complicated to be watched", does anyone actually need to know every play technicalities to enjoy watching Hockey or Basketball? Does anyone know how successfull players hold their sticks or their skating techniques? Like in anything else a very high amount of little details makes the difference between the average and the amazing player even among a professional league.

I agree WoW isn't a viable e-sport at all, but i really don't think its for that reason, specially since population is varied enough for ANYTHING to have a potential audience, see Curling.

#108 ardnut

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

View PostGrieverZ, on 03 April 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Never really understood the whole "wow is too complicated to be watched", does anyone actually need to know every play technicalities to enjoy watching Hockey or Basketball? Does anyone know how successfull players hold their sticks or their skating techniques? Like in anything else a very high amount of little details makes the difference between the average and the amazing player even among a professional league.

I agree WoW isn't a viable e-sport at all, but i really don't think its for that reason, specially since population is varied enough for ANYTHING to have a potential audience, see Curling.

Curling isn't really that complicated, so you are comparing apples and oranges.  I do think wow is too complicated to be followed by someone who doesn't at least PVE.  The positioning of the game is quite easy to follow and pick up for a new person watching.  But the abilities used are just too many to pick up easily.  Except for the ones the commentators talk about a lot e.g. Chaos bolt, deep freeze into bomb etc.  Azeal and Conrad (Yes Conrad) have done a great job and made it much more watchable IMO.  The new UI also helps, but the commentators are what make things exciting and engage the spectators.  I feel WoW has a big enough player base to make wow an esport just out of the wow community if it got backed by Blizzard.  Just one little advert on the launcher is all we would need to promote one of the well run community tournaments like Yaspresents/NAO, make the prize money something special and people would start to watch.

Edit: Forgot about the DDosers... they would ruin any chance of Blizzard backing a community run tournament :(  Stupid fucktards.

Edited by ardnut, 03 April 2013 - 07:22 AM.

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#109 Thaya

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:56 AM

View PostDrake, on 02 April 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:


I've had this debate like a gazillion times but I'll have to ask again, while leaving SC out of the question.

How does a point and click strategy game in which you only utilize 4 abilites plus an "item provided ability" here and there have a higher skill cap than a game with cca 10x that many abilities + much more complex movement and positioning?

How does a game that literally only needs you to point your mouse precisely really fast have a higher skill cap than a game where you have to do pretty much the same, but with numerous abilities while also having much higher awareness of what's happening on screen as opposed to basically clicking left mouse button anytime something moves in an FPS.

To clarify, I don't want to argue or flame, I seriously don't care much about the perceived skill cap of individual video games. I'm just curious as to why a considerably large crowd of people thinks that WoW has a low skill cap as opposed to FPS games or "one toon" strategy games. Can't be only because its an MMO and thus never will be properly balanced, or can it?

On a side note, I agree with the rest of your post.
As somebody who's been competitive in Quake 3, Warcraft 3, DotA and WoW (albeit mostly online, with some regional LANs for the first 3 games), I can tell you without doubt that WoW has the lowest skill ceiling of all those games.

Lolflay already gave the right answer but I don't think he emphasized enough on it (or even realized he said it). WoW is limited. There's too little space to display individual skill. Almost every action has a counter action that is predictable, and nearly all spells and abilities in the game are limited by global cooldown. It's completely possible to become so good at the game that there is nothing left to optimize or improve (in your personal gameplay exclusively), and that doesn't even take very long (compared to e-sport RTS/FPS games). The only thing it comes down to at that point is your frequency of mistakes, mind games with the enemy team (predicting/faking, not only interrupts, but also in position), and most importantly communication/synergy within a team. The best players I've played with were the best because of how they communicated.

Technically, LoL (and all MOBAs and RTS) also have this ceiling, but it's unreachable due to variety. There's so many heroes/units, items, skills, possible strats and tactics, that it's impossible to have all the knowledge inside one head, on top of strategies evolving and game patches. You actually have to analyze and think what the enemy is doing/trying to do/can do with their particular setup/items/units [I don't mean on the spot thinking you also have to do in WoW arena, I mean thinking about the macro game, preventing heroes from becoming too powerful, scouting and timing in WC3/SC, etc]. And even when these games are fully explored and researched, they still have some extra depth - you can still do things better, faster, improve your mechanics, reduce your rate of mistakes - this is why SC:BW is still alive for over a decade.

FPS games simply don't have this ceiling at all. Nobody in the world has or ever had 100% perfect aim. Nobody in the world has or ever had perfect dodging/movement (especially so in Quake). And both Quake and CS have their own meta game - in CS its teamwork and map control, in Quake duels its thinking for your enemy and map control, and both of them are fairly complex. Competitive FPS is far from being just about aim alone. Q3 was around and played competitively for over a decade, and Quake Live events are still kicking and are fun to watch.

Edit: everything italic are edits after replies to this were already made.

Edited by Thaya, 03 April 2013 - 03:17 PM.

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#110 Hyuru

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

Quote

Technically, LoL (and all MOBAs and RTS) also have this ceiling, but it's unreachable due to variety. There's so many heroes/units, items, skills, possible strats and tactics, that it's impossible to have all the knowledge inside one head, on top of strategies evolving and game patches.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that i've heard even top players in lol say themself that there is very little difference in individual skill-level on most of the tournament players, and the only thing they really can improove on and is the main factor for a teams success is their team play.

#111 khuna

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

Its always funny to see ppl talking about individual skills /teamplay and wow skillcap being low compared to other game, and then you watch them play and they aren't even close to being good, same ppl  usually whining about comps, dno if its your case for sure but it prolly is


lol @
It's completely possible to become so good at the game that there is nothing left to optimize or improve, and that doesn't even take very long.

link me vods of your play im sure we'll have a good laugh together

#112 Thaya

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

View Postkhuna, on 03 April 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Its always funny to see ppl talking about individual skills /teamplay and wow skillcap being low compared to other game, and then you watch them play and they aren't even close to being good, same ppl  usually whining about comps, dno if its your case for sure but it prolly is


lol @
It's completely possible to become so good at the game that there is nothing left to optimize or improve, and that doesn't even take very long.

link me vods of your play im sure we'll have a good laugh together
Don't rip quotes out of context. I was talking about individual play exclusively. Don't you remember all the cool shit an individual player could do to save or win a game back in WotLK? I say WotLK because in my opinion, this is the expansion where players could display their finesse and this is where most of the amazing plays happened. You had a much bigger effect in a match as an individual than you have now. You, of all people, should know exactly what I'm talking about.

I don't need to prove myself and won't link anything. You don't need to see me play to acknowledge that becoming perfect or nearly perfect at this game will take much less time than at any competitive FPS or RTS. There are pro gamers who have been on the Quake scene for over a decade and are still improving, and the same can be said about some SC:BW players. (There are also tons of people still playing WotLK on AT, because that's the only period where individual skill was where it should be in WoW.)

View PostHyuru, on 03 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that i've heard even top players in lol say themself that there is very little difference in individual skill-level on most of the tournament players, and the only thing they really can improove on and is the main factor for a teams success is their team play.
Of course, teamplay is still a bigger factor. It's even bigger than in WoW due to the macro game and map control. Also, that paragraph is not just about LoL.

Edited by Thaya, 03 April 2013 - 02:47 PM.

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#113 Renaissance_Man

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

View PostThaya, on 03 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

It's completely possible to become so good at the game that there is nothing left to optimize or improve, and that doesn't even take very long.

Are you really that naive and/or foolish?

#114 khuna

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:45 PM

No, individual play still matters a lot, the game is alot about making a sucession of right decisions and predicting opponent's decisions. Its just that you can just win even if you do bad individual play because comps matters even more when everyone is bad.

Maybe faking a cs doesn't matter anymore like in wotlk if you think thats clutch individual play yea

#115 Shouri

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostLolflay, on 03 April 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

:mellow:

My only experience with you is when you decided moon cloth gear was bad for shadow priests in WOTLK.

Quote

Game knowledge and muscle memory carry everyone in WoW - those things do squat shit in League..

While muscle memory may not be that important in league I think game knowledge is pretty important. Knowing your boundaries with your champion and also playing your lane effectively are all heavily dependent on game knowledge. For instance I heard a popular streamer(I can't remember who) claim that Dyrus had bad mechanics and was carried by his understanding of matchups.

Anyways if you're all about individual play you'd be playing starcraft, a game with literally no excuses and a way higher skill ceiling.

#116 Aniroxlol

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:45 PM

Hell yeah Holinka

#117 Vadren

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:40 PM

By the metrics for skill you've all proposed chess is a super simple game with a skill cap in the dirt for derp faces and brain injury patients.

For all its complexity for new players WoW actually forces you to learn the game for a couple hundred hours (for new players) before you even get to the point where you're allowed to compete in pvp. All of these other pvp games drop you into the heat against other players immediately.

Also a major component of WoW's complexity is information parsing. There is so much data thrown at you all the time that parsing what's important so you make the correct decision is really huge... Except that there are addons to pretty much cover this for you.

Regardless comparing the skill of different games and expecting to come to a quantifiable or globally agreeable conclusion is a huge waste of time.
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#118 ardnut

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 07:26 AM

View Postkhuna, on 03 April 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Its always funny to see ppl talking about individual skills /teamplay and wow skillcap being low compared to other game, and then you watch them play and they aren't even close to being good, same ppl  usually whining about comps, dno if its your case for sure but it prolly is


lol @
It's completely possible to become so good at the game that there is nothing left to optimize or improve, and that doesn't even take very long.

link me vods of your play im sure we'll have a good laugh together

Have to agree with this.  I have watched some player highlight clips like this one recently

http://www.arenajunk...ank-1-wmd-44-3/

and you can see they are ahead of other good players.  I'm sure other players such as Reckful/Khuna/Nada/Talb/etc/etc could produce such videos.  Predicting what the other team is going to do and countering before they do it is really hard.  I think it's what sets the top players apart from the good ones.  E.G. in that video reflecting 3 deeps in one game.
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#119 inhume

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:33 AM

i honestly don't think anyone who talks down on wow in terms of skill realizes how long they've played/trained on this game or the uniqueness that is apart of this game.

for example, you can go play dota or hon and hop into league of legends and you will be okay because the mechanics are the same. you won't be great because you'll lack the information regarding certain heroes, skills or items but mechanically you would be sound. RTS games suffer the same issue. Why do you think flash or grubby are able to play on high levels? they aren't the best but they compete because they played other RTS style games. once you learn micro/macro, unit control....all you have to do is learn the style of play of the game. FPS, same thing.

too many wow players just suffer from an ego and believe there's nothing about their gameplay that could have improved in terms of postioning, cooldown management or decision making. you would rather blame class inbalances because it's an easy cop out solution, claim there wasn't nothing else you could have done or the gcd (no matter how you spin it, you could always be faster on your decisions and those miliseconds add up). there's no other game in the world that even comes close to the mechanics that is wow arena and with the number of variables in this game, ppl are too easy to shrug it off as a bad game.




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