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#41 Hotted

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:14 PM

Youtube is  a great media to post your content. I would rather edit a video than just write a guide. Front page should be more community driven like Thaya said.
While I do own a fairly popular youtube channel I do have a semi bias opinion about it, but I'm pretty sure people would rather see a video example than just a  written guide
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#42 Durial

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:15 PM

Trying to help anyone or posting useful/insightful comments or giving feedback won't go down too well if you don't have several gladiator helmets above your name. So making guides and trying to help out where possible and such is only generally appreciated/rewarded mostly by the people who are multi glads/rank 1's.

Thats the problem on AJ when it comes to the community, people judge others entirely on their gladiator ahievements and their reputation on AJ and in the WoW community. If you're not known - you're not any use to anyone, even if you post fantastic posts. Gladiator helmets for example mean how good you are, which gives people a very quick decision on if you're worthy of posting anything of use to them and that you're allowed to talk like shit to them because they're a "nobody" after all.

Then there's the other part where people compete entirely on getting the most +rep from retarded posts, gifs and so forth. This is like any other forum, everyone wants to be noticed if they're not successful in being noticed for great pvp/game skills. Sadly the only way around this part would be very strict moderation, after all, thats the only way it will stop as thats all they are good at doing, so they will continue to do it till death do them part.

#43 Tist

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:30 PM

Few things, not really related to AJ but PvP as a whole:

The PvP community in general has been "dying" since probably WotLK.  There's a few reasons for that.  In TBC we were all new to arena and competitive PvP (for the most part) and so everyone was very willing to build the community and help each other out.  It was shiny and new and we all had a blast.  It was just a game back then.  

Since the inception of arena, it's evolved from a fun competitive portion of WoW to being monetized in several different ways, which has not only completely fucked ladders and actual competitiveness, but led to the situation we have now where it is not even a community so much as it is a glorified way to make money.  This has only gotten exponentially worse with Blizzard making it increasingly easy to transfer servers, characters, and everything else in between.  

Speaking from US perspective - BG9 was large and flourishing back in TBC too, and people pushed to make it "the" place to be even back then, but what's forgotten is nearly every other battlegroup had it's own communities too - even on the low pop or dead servers there were small PvP communities that played a part.  Having played on Shadowburn (BG8) since TBC, I can remember playing people from literally almost every server on the BG on a regular basis.  You KNEW the top teams on each server because you played them so much.

We've gone from that to everyone migrating to a few select realms to be where the top dogs and e-famous were, ironically to consolidate the PvP community, and all it's done is clogged up and funneled everyone into maybe 5-6 servers here and there, turning everything else into a complete wasteland, and really not doing a whole lot of favors for anyone as all it does is force people to these few servers in order to be remotely competitive at all.  

Another big thing I've noticed with this mass migration is that players have just gotten more and more elitist as time has gone by.  The top players went from idols to practically untouchable cult status, and this has had a trickle down effect by and large.  Everyone who thinks they're good migrate to the big servers, and its turned into one large shitfest of ratings hierarchy.  People will ONLY play if you've been this rating or that rating, or have T2, or all of the above.  This type of attitude is everywhere - I've played with legitimate 1800 rated RBG heroes who just talk shit constantly about anyone and everyone as if they're 2800 instead of 1800.  There's a lot of these types floating around the big servers who just think they're way WAY better than they are, and are ultimately content to just sit around "stomping scrubs" in lower brackets, or who might eventually just buy a title to keep their egos up.  I mean, I'm not exactly super high rated myself any more like I've been in past expansions, but I've at least been there on my own before and I'm not arrogant enough to assume that everyone ever who's been a lower rating than me is trash and not worth my time.

The competitiveness of the arena community is mostly dead because a huge portion of the few glad spots on ladder nowadays are either sells or boosts, leaving a huge gap.  There's a lot of players who WOULD be Rival or Duelist who will get boosts because it's easier than actually playing, and a lot of people who just simply buy Gladiator nowadays, something that just was not that this widespread in the early days.

Think about it - if you're even a semi-competent player, there's a nearly insurmountable mountain to climb here.  Gladiator is so far-fetched today that most either don't even bother trying, or end up buying it.  Say I'm a player who just legitimately reached 2k (itself a rarity today), what's my incentive to keep playing when I know that I'll have to queue into comparatively top tier players almost nonstop AND have a high win rate, just to get to DUELIST range.  We all make fun of stuff like season four, where the top 150-200 2v2 teams were Glad in many battlegroups, but the reality is that Glad and even Duelist were something that were much more reasonably attainable and something that perhaps the average player could eventually aspire to on his own as the season progressed.





And I know, wall of text.  Sorry.

Edited by Tist, 26 March 2013 - 07:36 PM.


#44 WildeHilde

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:35 PM

Love what you write. If I had mod rights I would put it on the front page.

#45 Synkz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:36 PM

Changed my bookmark for AJ to the Ask a Gladiator section and tried to answer some questions there today.  It's a start :P

#46 Thaya

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

View PostDurial, on 26 March 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Trying to help anyone or posting useful/insightful comments or giving feedback won't go down too well if you don't have several gladiator helmets above your name. So making guides and trying to help out where possible and such is only generally appreciated/rewarded mostly by the people who are multi glads/rank 1's.

Thats the problem on AJ when it comes to the community, people judge others entirely on their gladiator ahievements and their reputation on AJ and in the WoW community. If you're not known - you're not any use to anyone, even if you post fantastic posts. Gladiator helmets for example mean how good you are, which gives people a very quick decision on if you're worthy of posting anything of use to them and that you're allowed to talk like shit to them because they're a "nobody" after all.

Then there's the other part where people compete entirely on getting the most +rep from retarded posts, gifs and so forth. This is like any other forum, everyone wants to be noticed if they're not successful in being noticed for great pvp/game skills. Sadly the only way around this part would be very strict moderation, after all, thats the only way it will stop as thats all they are good at doing, so they will continue to do it till death do them part.
I disagree with that. As long as you're consistently posting good replies, people don't care that much if you have 1 or 5 helms. I used to post on official forums a lot back in the day, using an alt with no achievements whatsoever and rarely my main (back before account-wide achievements). Of course you have more credibility if you have a name, and some specific questions need an answer from somebody credible, but for the most part, it doesn't matter. The same thing will happen here.

Moderation will be needed for all of this to work, of course. It doesn't have to be ultra strict, just remove all the trash posts, all the deliberate misinformation, and insults. I can personally moderate at least 2 forums without almost any extra effort (lock/dk - I play the classes so I'm checking those forums myself).

You can also do what Hilde did with the Rogue guide. It's just "approved by Reckful", not actually written by Reckful, if you really want it to be credible.

Also, not sure why everybody hates on good humor posts getting a lot of rep on general. It would be boring without the local humor.
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#47 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostTist, on 26 March 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Since the inception of arena, it's evolved from a fun competitive portion of WoW to being monetized in several different ways, which has not only completely fucked ladders and actual competitiveness, but led to the situation we have now where it is not even a community so much as it is a glorified way to make money.  This has only gotten exponentially worse with Blizzard making it increasingly easy to transfer servers, characters, and everything else in between.  

Speaking from US perspective - BG9 was large and flourishing back in TBC too, and people pushed to make it "the" place to be even back then, but what's forgotten is nearly every other battlegroup had it's own communities too - even on the low pop or dead servers there were small PvP communities that played a part.  Having played on Shadowburn (BG8) since TBC, I can remember playing people from literally almost every server on the BG on a regular basis.  You KNEW the top teams on each server because you played them so much.

Another big thing I've noticed with this mass migration is that players have just gotten more and more elitist as time has gone by.  The top players went from idols to practically untouchable cult status, and this has had a trickle down effect by and large.  Everyone who thinks they're good migrate to the big servers, and its turned into one large shitfest of ratings hierarchy.  People will ONLY play if you've been this rating or that rating, or have T2, or all of the above.  This type of attitude is everywhere - I've played with legitimate 1800 rated RBG heroes who just talk shit constantly about anyone and everyone as if they're 2800 instead of 1800.  There's a lot of these types floating around the big servers who just think they're way WAY better than they are, and are ultimately content to just sit around "stomping scrubs" in lower brackets, or who might eventually just buy a title to keep their egos up.  I mean, I'm not exactly super high rated myself any more like I've been in past expansions, but I've at least been there on my own before and I'm not arrogant enough to assume that everyone ever who's been a lower rating than me is trash and not worth my time.
this precisely

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#48 Nightmonkey

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

Totally agree with Savorypk.  Nothing bothers me more than playing with some random people and all they can talk about is how good they are and how shitty everyone else is.  The truth is most people that talk this way aren't actually that good.  Some of them are, but that is rare.  

People who are inexperienced often tend to rate themselves much higher than somebody with experience would rate themselves.  I believe this is called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

It's happened more to me since I've started posting again than it ever did in the past.  I'll post something that somebody else doesn't agree with and suddenly I'm just a retard, a washed up one helmet glad from 3 years ago.  It's just that this community and the WoW community as a whole is a hostile one.

Nobody wants to stand up in front of a hostile audience and try to educate them.  Especially not an audience where most people would consider themselves more experienced or qualified to be educating.  When you throw in the fact that there's not actually any reward other than recognition and the feeling you get from contributing.

So why don't we start by making a thread in each class forum for each spec where people can contribute things, then a mod or content editor compiles it into a guide/faq and then stickies it.  Maybe one person from each class/spec could volunteer.  Look at how Icy-Veins does PVE guides if you need some inspiration.  I'd be glad to help out with the Paladin/Warrior/Shaman guides.

#49 Bloobungle

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:55 PM

Perhaps we have it all backwards and the site is actually designed to appeal to a different audience.

Washed-up old content and raging baboons seem awful to you and me but, maybe, just maybe, the majority of the forum-base absolutely love it!

I often feel like I have to pound 7 energy drinks, eat a perfect meal, and find one constructive post to put forth the effort to log-in and respond. It's almost like I'm addicted to ensuring that the site remains a self-esteem booster.

#50 Vadren

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:46 PM

One of the hurdles for WoW PvP guides is how drastically the game will change from patch to patch and even more so with every expansion. So maybe a wiki so multiple people can update/contribute would be more applicable than a forum for this.

I'm actually not sure if there is a wow pvp wiki out there.

View PostStructural, on 26 March 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

donating to reckful will help pvp

I know you think you're trolling, but this is probably true. Good players streaming and answering questions is a good thing and more good players streaming means more viewers on twitch which increases visibility and interest in WoW PvP.
Vadren#1175

#51 Hyrmine

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:59 PM

what? really?
the highest donators to reckful are just rich fucks who dont even play the game. they have said countless times that they dont play wow or dont play anymore. theyre just freaks who admire him for no reason really.

#52 Vadren

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:18 AM

View PostHyrmine, on 26 March 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

what? really?
the highest donators to reckful are just rich fucks who dont even play the game. they have said countless times that they dont play wow or dont play anymore. theyre just freaks who admire him for no reason really.

I'm not going to pretend to know anyone's motivation for donating lots of money to any of the popular streamers, but it's irrelevant to the point. Regardless most people donate small amounts and many of those just to ask questions about arena.

An increased presence on twitch is good for WoW.
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#53 Regent

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:13 AM

View PostGsgsgsgsgs, on 26 March 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Be nice to regentlord :)

I like this guy.

View PostTist, on 26 March 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

snip

I agree a lot with what you said. Monetization of PvP really sucks. People selling titles really sucks. Fighting your way to glad and then losing it to some rank 1s selling glad is just dumb and ruins the fun of the game. The biggest problem is that Blizzard doesn't do anything against it, and the community doesn't look down upon it.

Most of us have sold carries some time or the other, I sold some in Cata but stopped after I got whispered by one of the people we beat. He told me how unfair he thought it was that there was no way for him to get 2200 because he had to continuously beat 2k teams being piloted by 2400+/glad teams. I thought back to when I first started getting good at arena and how every rating bracket was generally filled with people of a similar skill level. Being 1900 and trying to get to 2k when you keep facing Glads is dumb.

Edited by Regent, 27 March 2013 - 03:23 AM.


#54 Instability

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:31 AM

View PostTist, on 26 March 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Few things, not really related to AJ but PvP as a whole:

The PvP community in general has been "dying" since probably WotLK.  There's a few reasons for that.  In TBC we were all new to arena and competitive PvP (for the most part) and so everyone was very willing to build the community and help each other out.  It was shiny and new and we all had a blast.  It was just a game back then.  

Since the inception of arena, it's evolved from a fun competitive portion of WoW to being monetized in several different ways, which has not only completely fucked ladders and actual competitiveness, but led to the situation we have now where it is not even a community so much as it is a glorified way to make money.  This has only gotten exponentially worse with Blizzard making it increasingly easy to transfer servers, characters, and everything else in between.  

Speaking from US perspective - BG9 was large and flourishing back in TBC too, and people pushed to make it "the" place to be even back then, but what's forgotten is nearly every other battlegroup had it's own communities too - even on the low pop or dead servers there were small PvP communities that played a part.  Having played on Shadowburn (BG8) since TBC, I can remember playing people from literally almost every server on the BG on a regular basis.  You KNEW the top teams on each server because you played them so much.

We've gone from that to everyone migrating to a few select realms to be where the top dogs and e-famous were, ironically to consolidate the PvP community, and all it's done is clogged up and funneled everyone into maybe 5-6 servers here and there, turning everything else into a complete wasteland, and really not doing a whole lot of favors for anyone as all it does is force people to these few servers in order to be remotely competitive at all.  

Another big thing I've noticed with this mass migration is that players have just gotten more and more elitist as time has gone by.  The top players went from idols to practically untouchable cult status, and this has had a trickle down effect by and large.  Everyone who thinks they're good migrate to the big servers, and its turned into one large shitfest of ratings hierarchy.  People will ONLY play if you've been this rating or that rating, or have T2, or all of the above.  This type of attitude is everywhere - I've played with legitimate 1800 rated RBG heroes who just talk shit constantly about anyone and everyone as if they're 2800 instead of 1800.  There's a lot of these types floating around the big servers who just think they're way WAY better than they are, and are ultimately content to just sit around "stomping scrubs" in lower brackets, or who might eventually just buy a title to keep their egos up.  I mean, I'm not exactly super high rated myself any more like I've been in past expansions, but I've at least been there on my own before and I'm not arrogant enough to assume that everyone ever who's been a lower rating than me is trash and not worth my time.

The competitiveness of the arena community is mostly dead because a huge portion of the few glad spots on ladder nowadays are either sells or boosts, leaving a huge gap.  There's a lot of players who WOULD be Rival or Duelist who will get boosts because it's easier than actually playing, and a lot of people who just simply buy Gladiator nowadays, something that just was not that this widespread in the early days.

Think about it - if you're even a semi-competent player, there's a nearly insurmountable mountain to climb here.  Gladiator is so far-fetched today that most either don't even bother trying, or end up buying it.  Say I'm a player who just legitimately reached 2k (itself a rarity today), what's my incentive to keep playing when I know that I'll have to queue into comparatively top tier players almost nonstop AND have a high win rate, just to get to DUELIST range.  We all make fun of stuff like season four, where the top 150-200 2v2 teams were Glad in many battlegroups, but the reality is that Glad and even Duelist were something that were much more reasonably attainable and something that perhaps the average player could eventually aspire to on his own as the season progressed.





And I know, wall of text.  Sorry.


Couldn't have said it better. I also played on Shadowburn through all my glad titles. Even on the realm I was on (Staghelm) we had a very close knit pvp community. It's a shame that it's as if there really isn't a "community" anymore but a bashfest.

#55 acushi

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:35 AM

Why write up content when you can sell carries for money?

Money talks.  Whats gonna happen if you write an amazing guide on AJ?  +rep? Ok, but most people would rather have money.

Just the nature of the beast.

#56 Thaya

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:42 AM

Yeah, there's no way to monetize text guides without AJ/Curse directly supporting it. But what we can do is promote and popularize certain videos. If someone makes an exceptionally good video guide, gets sticky and/or a feature on frontpage, it'll bring him tons of views and subs.

As I said multiple times already, right now we should just restructure the forum to make this demand for content more visible. Enthusiasts will appear themselves - ultimately it doesn't matter if it will be via videos or text.

P.S.
Speaking of the frontpage/newsfeed, I think that's another part of the site and community that can be hugely improved. Look at diablofans for an example of a great newsfeed - every time there's new content, they post it on the front page.

Other people see the potential - be it for personal fame or to attract people to their youtube channels - and also aim to create better and more useful content to get featured over there. I know a guy who got featured like 10 times and his channel got 15k subs now (quite a lot for a channel only about D3).

Just something to consider.

Edited by Thaya, 27 March 2013 - 06:50 AM.

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#57 Cakesz

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:41 AM

AJ has long lost it's purpose, this place has just become the WoW forums but even worse (because people with egos always think they're right) I doubt very much this place will ever become anything remotely good again, the owner/mods don't give a even a small shit about the state the site has fallen into to, pretty much since mid-late WotLK.

TBC and Early WotLK it's goal was to discuss the game and balance and talk about Arena in a constructive way, but nowadays you get posts like "LOL YOU GUYS GOT NERFED, YOU DESERVE IT, GET SHIT ON NOOBS", just like you'd see on the official forums.

Most of the posters here are just plain trash.

The only reason most people read this site now is for a small chance of end of season drama, wow someone wintraded again? That's a damn surprise.

A perfect example of how far this site has fallen is the way serial cheaters have never been banned, how can you promote a competitive/fun community when those that specifically destroy that are still allowed to be part of the community?

Still, I have hope that this can change, so I applaud you for attempting it with this thread, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I'd go as far as saying either AJ needs a completely new mod/owner team, or a new site would be better at achieving these goals.

EDIT: And I'm also well aware that people don't like hearing this (and that this post doesn't help or change anything, but as stated, nobody really gives a damn anymore).

Edited by Cakesz, 27 March 2013 - 07:47 AM.


#58 Imitation

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:48 AM

Totally support this thread and I for one would love to see a guide on rogue openers. Neilyo wrote one in 4.3 and it was really helpful for someone like me that hasn't played a rogue before.

#59 WildeHilde

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

Some points from me.

1.) If you have a good guide or something to share and have junkies status - put it in the class forums. While I can't add the posts of other users to the frontpage - I can ask the mods to do so.

2.) If you don't have Junkie Status but want to share a guide or something important (please not about class balance, this is the areas where you should have credentials) put it into the waiting room and send me a PM about it. If it's good, it can be moved.

3.) Maintaining guides is work. Most guides are written with a lot of motivation but poorly maintained. The amount of time to test things for the rogue guide alone is incredible. Ideadlly guides would be organized over a wiki rather than forum posts, but we don't have that on AJ, so we need the mods to help out keeping guides up to date and sticky new versions.

4.) Don't be shy. share the stuff you have. For example I'm currently looking for RBG videos of comps that are not cookie cutter, but make it work.

5.) The monetization is way less with 5.2 and even more with 5.3. Rating inflation, gear scaling, removal of T2 killed off a huge part of the boosting business and selling titles is way harder due to the rating inflation, even on the smaller battlegrounds. This will give titles more meaning again.

6.) Monetization of guides is a necessary evil. I hate it if people ask to follow / like / donate, but I think if in a perfect world guide writers, addon authors and video makers would get the money boosters get currently the game and the community would improve.

#60 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:00 AM

As far as addressing moderation, go here:  http://www.arenajunk...-aj-moderation/

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day




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