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#1 Thaya

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:38 AM

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All my recent posts on general were about how unfriendly WoW PvP is to newer players, how brutal and boring the gear grind is, how stupid and archaic the PvP systems are, and so on and so forth. I'm even annoyed at myself for repeating the same things over and over in different threads. Besides, all of these are directed at Blizzard, and the chances of getting any feedback - especially on AJ - are close to zero.

But I want things to happen. So I thought, what can we - the players - do? What can the AJ community do?

First of all, content.

I think everybody agrees that WoW PvP is pretty hard to get into just due to the knowledge required to be successful. Generally speaking, you need to know a lot of things before you can even really enjoy the game and understand what's going on. 40-60 abilities per spec, subtle but important cooldowns, various lethal combinations of cooldowns/spells and their approximate potential, all the important defenses, various interface scripts/addons that could help you, et cetera. This game is only fun when you can actually anticipate things, know when to play safe or when to push (based on their cooldowns), know which things to interfere/stop to prevent your team from using major cooldowns, know when you can be stopped or not... and all this meta game is possible only if you know the game well enough.

It's pointless and nearly impossible to cover all of that in text or video guides. However, what can be covered are all the basic things that new people will ask, like: which talents and glyphs to use, how to gear, gameplay basics (which spells to use, which combos to try and pull off), what is my role in rbg/arena/xyz, which team mates/classes should I look for, which counters to my combos to look out for, where do I place my portal/gate (example of a spec-specific question), which things should I prioritize while I'm new, are there any addons or macros that will make my life easier... You can cover pretty much all the theory.

These basic guides are so valuable, it surprises me that people completely abandoned writing them. When I log on a new class and don't know even the very basics, like how to deal damage most efficiently, I really wish those guides still existed. I just want to get into the head of an experienced [with the spec] player to get answers for all my basic questions; even if I'm guessing what the right answer is, being certain about it would help the learning process a lot. You don't need to make it an in-depth guide where you write 10000 words for every viable comp, you just need to point in the right direction, explain your mindset a little bit, share set-in-stone knowledge (gear/talent/glyph setup), and give some general tips and thoughts. No more, no less.

Back when those guides existed, I would browse other classes guides just to get a better idea of how other classes work. It actually helped me a bit, because I could anticipate certain things better and/or stop them in advance. Sure, I would probably learn it myself even if the guide didn't exist, but that would probably take more time and more losses.

I'm not even mentioning the old matchup guides on AJ back in TBC. We literally had a whole section dedicated to those, i.e. guides about certain comps and how they're played vs other popular comps. It was brilliant.

What do we have today? I'll take the time to open every single sticky on every class forum:

Spoiler

TLDR: there's only two sticky threads that are up to date at all: Rets and Rogues. Shamans have no guides at all. There's tons of guides and stickies that weren't updated since Season 9 - that's more than 2 years ago! I even found a thread that was a sticky since May 2009, good old WotLK! Come on!

And the worst thing is that all of this outdated information is still getting views, because it's stickied. Because nobody cares, and because there's no new content. It makes me wonder what content editors are doing. No offense guys, but I see some content editors and moderators posting fairly frequently here, yet you can't at least unpin threads that are outdated for several years to not misinform people and to make this very forum look a bit more representative? What do new users think when they see Season 9 info stickied? Uh.

Look at PvE. It's the same game, it has the same problems, but there's so much information about PvE compared to PvP. Go to icy-veins.com and look at the class guides. Remember old Elitist Jerks guides. There's also noxxic.com (I love the concept of this one, but too much bad content). There's a bunch of very popular youtube channels dedicated to boss guides, and they're also available on icy-veins. It takes me a few seconds to find any info I need in PvE. Why don't we have this in PvP anymore?

If we actually help people improve, maybe they will be slightly more interested?

Secondly, forum structure.

Look at "Ask a Gladiator" section. Most threads have 0 replies, occasionally there's a reply, rarely a conversation (mostly trash). No wonder, there's no incentive for a Junkie to ever visit that section. I'm willing to bet that most of the replies in that section are because people randomly bump into those threads via the "fresh threads" stream on front page, "view new content", last post or similar, not by actually visiting the section. It's not that everybody is a douchebag and doesn't wanna help, it's the forum structure not helping that happen.

Class forums, I only visit the warlock and occasionally the DK one, but both are inactive. It wouldn't surprise me if all the other class forums are also inactive - people don't even bother to report sticky threads from Season 9... So I wonder, why are class forums still junkie-only? They could be the perfect place to answer questions and educate people. I used to post a ton on class forums on official forums just because I enjoyed answering questions and helping people, while at the same time refining and reviewing my own knowledge constantly.

Same thing goes for the 2v2/3v3/5v5 subsections of the general discussion section. I don't think they serve any purpose whatsoever anymore. You could drag them out and let non-junkies access them, so there are actual discussions about 2v2/3v3/5v5 matchups instead of being a collection of threads about end of season wintrading.

With some decent moderation, this could work wonders. I don't mean EJ-esque strict moderation. Just remove all the trash replies and warn/ban douchebags. It won't be that hard, really.

Leave general as it is, of course. I'm not suggesting to remove access limitations completely, but right now the non-junkie section is like a ghetto. All I'm suggesting is a bit more integration at the cost of inactive forum sections. Everybody wins.

Speaking of inactive forum sections, another thing that bugs me all the time is all those out of date, useless sections:
- "Blizzard 3v3 Tournament"? TR is down for ages now. And why not call it something like "TR Recruitment" because that's all that it's for? All the actual tournament stream discussions happen in the News threads.
- "Theorycrafting", what's the point of this one? Existed for years, a grand total of 54 topics.
- "NAO Invitational Tournament", when was the last NAO?
- "Content Feedback", I fail to understand what is this for. All the "content" on the site has comment sections for it, why does this section exist? People mistake the "macros" subsection as a forum to ask help with macros, too

I don't think it's healthy when some 20 sections are dead inactive. It sort of reminds you that the game is dead and there's nothing you can do, you know.

And lastly, be nicer to each other. When there's no textual references and all experience and knowledge is shared verbally, it matters more than ever.

Edited by Thaya, 26 March 2013 - 09:51 PM.

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#2 Icekingx

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:45 AM

You speak words of truth.

Rawrbertlol, on 14 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Best signatures on entire website.
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#3 Hyrmine

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:51 AM

There's no guides anymore because of this amazing website called Skill-Capped where they charge you for telling you whether to wear plate or leather as paladin. This game has been monetized so much and this is why it's so much shittier now than back then in tbc where a title was a title, not something you could go buy with money.
Nonetheless I agree PvP should be more accessible  I dinged 90 on my rshaman recently and I seriously hated every second of farming honor on it in a legitimate way. Dying over and over again because of gear is no fun whatsoever and I don't see any 'noob' doing this just to be able to go arena.
I think Blizzard should focus on making PvP more fun for newly dinged characters since this is exactly the point where newbies decide whether they go for PvP at all. Obviously if they ding and go bg just to get 1 shot they aren't going to bother anymore.

It sounds a bit stupid but I always thought Blizzard should have in-game guides that pop up and explain you how to play battlegrounds better, yeah it obviously isn't hard but believe me, most players playing this game are pretty stupid and Blizzard has to cater for them too.

#4 Bigmoran

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:53 AM

Briefly skimmed through your post. Didn't read all of it (will later) but I will throw in my two cents.

As someone who makes instructional content for a website whose name I can't disclose, I completely agree that even the most elementary guides are the most successful. The biggest problem with delivering these guides to a large audience is that content creators have to have some sort of monetary incentive to produce their work. Video guides take time. Even a five minute video takes ~1 hour to produce and render.

The golden days of AJ are long gone. The utilitarian spirit of this website has been reduced to bashing and complaining; everyone wants to relive those days but we fail to collectively organize to do so.

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View PostIcekingx, on 26 November 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Emma Watson would call Bigmoran and hang up cause she knows hes WAY to good for her.

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#5 Thaya

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:54 AM

Yeah, I've said it hundreds of times by now that PvP gear should be more accessible, and especially the honor grind has to be shortened or removed. But this is, again, something that only Blizzard can affect, and not what this thread is about.

As for skill-capped, yeah I wanted to mention it in the OP. The fact that it's paid alone makes it available only to a small minority - people who just want to try out PvP won't buy access. The other thing about SC is that it's obvious that most of the content was made just for the money they pay for it. A lot of it is poor. There are some real gems, though.

SC could be huge if they believed in ad revenue and were an open resource. They would attract a lot more people capable of creating content as well, and they wouldn't need to host all the video content on their own servers. It could even replace AJ as "the" PvP forum/community.

Edited by Thaya, 26 March 2013 - 12:59 AM.

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#6 djp771133

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:56 AM

I would totally make guides and such, but I haven't because people will probably just say "LOL NICE KFC YA NOOBLORD".  Instead I decide to make troll videos like Lawlsnoballz 2 :D

#7 Bigmoran

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:56 AM

Also, for those of you who ARE interested in making instructional guides, you have to look at your content from the eyes of a player who is VERY new to this game. When I make videos this is one of the most difficult things to do. The order you hit your buttons, the routes you run between pillars, the way you move in and out of line of sight, the times you use your trinket, and so forth are all things that may seem entirely instinctive to you but entirely foreign to someone else.

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View PostIcekingx, on 26 November 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Emma Watson would call Bigmoran and hang up cause she knows hes WAY to good for her.

Folmar: cdew plays with his hood up to support treyvon


#8 djp771133

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:02 AM

Well, I'll be honest I only really look at the new topics thing on the front page when I visit this site.  That being said, is there any place we could organize all the videos?(if there isn't a place on this site already)  Such as a youtube channel etc?  It would be good to start a new one that is completely dedicated to guides etc too.

Edited by djp771133, 26 March 2013 - 01:02 AM.


#9 Braindance

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:08 AM

Nothing will change here for the following reasons:

a)There is no sense of reward or punishment in those forums and in the game now. You can be a saint and get nothing or be a complete jackass and get the respect of this mob called junkies, just because you got "swag" (/puke)

b)The game atm can be played almost solo mode. You don't need a guild to do raids - you got lfr. You can get gear from dailies. In BC pve and pvp gear were interlinked - you could pvp in pve gear and vice versa and you had to work with a closely knit team to achieve your goals

c) The moderation is, as the word says, moderate. Moderators are too easy on everyone. Bans are rare. Infractions have too high of a cap. Any sociopath that had problems with his real life, can come here and open fire on everyone without any kind of punishment, UNLESS, someone, somewhere decides to push the report button which is scarcely used

d)"Good" players have no time now. They are "too busy" or afking. I remember in s2, the one that helped me transition from rogue to warrior was a guy named Dustman that was top 5 2s/3s most of s2 and 3. This guy was qing 24/7, but when I asked him for help (multiple times), he literally stopped qing to give me macros and playstyle advice. I am still continuing his legacy of helping others. People turn to me for help in messages and in game whispers while my title collection is the lowest of the low. Why? Because I care to help them

e)Bitches play this game. What do I mean? Instead of working around the imbalances and/or making helpful suggestions on how to improve the game, they just bitch. 24/7 they bitch about everything. "Why is my class weak?"."Why can't I have tattoos on my character?". "Why can't I can't see my character's genitalia to masturbate?".

f)You get the most +rep for posting moronic bullshit and childish insults. Good posts are rarely rewarded.

This AJ, is sending all the new players to either skill-capped or streamers. How many new players are willing to pay money to learn how to pvp? Quite a few. How many new players would pvp if they didn't have to pay to go through the rough learning curve? A lot.

tl;dr If moderation in this place doesn't become way more strict, if no incentives are given to junkies for making guides (even that pet giveaway that Curse does), this situation will keep recycling itself perpetually.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#10 stalebagel

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:09 AM

It's simple, we kill the batman.
game of thrones season 4

#11 Braindance

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:09 AM

View PostBigmoran, on 26 March 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Briefly skimmed through your post. Didn't read all of it (will later) but I will throw in my two cents.

As someone who makes instructional content for a website whose name I can't disclose, I completely agree that even the most elementary guides are the most successful. The biggest problem with delivering these guides to a large audience is that content creators have to have some sort of monetary incentive to produce their work. Video guides take time. Even a five minute video takes ~1 hour to produce and render.

The golden days of AJ are long gone. The utilitarian spirit of this website has been reduced to bashing and complaining; everyone wants to relive those days but we fail to collectively organize to do so.
And you think you are helping the situation by posting your facebook timeline 24/7 around here yes?

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#12 Thaya

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:14 AM

Yes, all the class and matchup sections would need much stricter moderation than it is now in General. But I think General should stay as it is. It should be the community section where people just hang out, sort of.
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#13 Braindance

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:16 AM

View PostThaya, on 26 March 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Yes, all the class and matchup sections would need much stricter moderation than it is now in General. But I think General should stay as it is. It should be the community section where people just hang out, sort of.
They should go back to battlegroup forums, or as Tyveris had promised once make a rant room.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#14 Thaya

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:18 AM

Battlegroups are almost irrelevant today. Rant Room exists and hosts a community of its own, for many years now actually.
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#15 Farkette

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:22 AM

/respect  for making this thread!
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#16 Djandawg

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:24 AM

It is not only the new player base, you also need to consider that, there is a good chunk of people who quit this game for a few seasons, or 1 expansion etc and come back.
I have a group of 8 (most of them RL) friends who came back to the game last week. They really liked the content, stuff you can do this expansion, like quests, rep, dungeons, raids, different mechanics, zones and so on. Even though they were relatively high rated players and did many hours of arena every week when they were active, they kinda dropped arena (they all have full honor gear). When I asked them the reason they all said, all classes have everything, signature abilities are given to other classes and everyone has basically too much. It obviously sucks that they changed so much and it is almost a brand new way of doing arena, so maybe a few guides could help but it's mostly the direction of the game that people don't like.

Edited by Djandawg, 26 March 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#17 Hyrmine

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:48 AM

View Postdjp771133, on 26 March 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

I would totally make guides and such, but I haven't because people will probably just say "LOL NICE KFC YA NOOBLORD".  Instead I decide to make troll videos like Lawlsnoballz 2 :D
That's another issue with this site. Elitism has no place here or even in a game like WoW. Everyone started at a stage where they were noobs and needed tips for the most faceroll comps. Having guides for faceroll comps does help low rated players and keeps them playing arena but most players just quit since they can't progress.

#18 kazuhmeer

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:01 AM

View PostHyrmine, on 26 March 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

That's another issue with this site. Elitism has no place here or even in a game like WoW. Everyone started at a stage where they were noobs and needed tips for the most faceroll comps. Having guides for faceroll comps does help low rated players and keeps them playing arena but most players just quit since they can't progress.

The AJ community has always been kind of elitist, but its approaching levels where I don't even take posts here seriously.  So many people have vendettas against 1 class / comp (KFC SCRUBLORDS), that you just can't take any posts without a grain of salt.  Still holding grudges against rogues for cataclysm is stupid, but I see posts about it all the time.

Also, where are moderators?  The amount of threads that start on topic then go into 3 posts of flame wars and off-topic stupidity without any bans is amazing.

#19 Gsgsgsgsgs

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostThaya, on 26 March 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

And lastly, be nicer to each other..

Be nice to regentlord :)

#20 Shrouds

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:10 AM

View Poststalebagel, on 26 March 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

It's simple, we kill the batman.
i lol'd
but yeah the biggest issue is there's no incentive in-game for people to cooperate. That's most likely how everyone learnt how to play, by helping each other out. Like I remember there was this rogue in BC who wouldn't use slice and dice and some other bad stuff in her rotation, everyone complained about her DPS. I explained things to her in 5 mins and her dps went up dramatically. It works the same with PvP too, if you just tell someone who to do they become so much better. However, since Blizzard made the game more solo, it's like impossible to even have guilds that do anything.




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