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FYI: 1 Intellect appears to be better than 2 PvP Power


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#1 Veev

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:50 AM

Edit: I may have jumped to conclusions originally.  Please read my follow-up post.

Note: This is only important if you're NOT gemming towards resil (such as for RBGs perhaps).  If your main concern is resil, then your 3 gems will still be Mystic/Vivid/Willful.

I made some slight modifications to my warrior spreadsheet, to figure out the relative values of Intellect and PvP Power for Destruction, and was somewhat surprised to discover that 1 point of Intellect appears to be better than 2 points of PvP Power (unlike with warrior and Strength).

I'm not going to go into the full exhaustive details on how all of this is calculated (and I will readily admit that the math and logic behind it is not flawless), but I'll give a quick explanation: I take SimCraft DPS stat weights (intended for PvE, but I try to edit the options to mimic a more PvP-like scenario), and then simply incorporate my current PvP Power, and then determine how much of an effect that 1 additional point of each of the various stats will have.

The spreadsheet: http://www.editgrid....spreadsheet_(1)
Wowhead link: http://www.wowhead.c...:32.49:100;gb=1 (try another browser if it doesn't load properly)

I'm not sure if this was common knowledge or not already (I'm just returning to warlock), but I couldn't find any clear information on the matter.  So hopefully some people find it helpful to know.

#2 Filthpig

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 05:54 AM

Do these stat weights apply to destruction only?

#3 Veev

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostFilthpig, on 19 March 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Do these stat weights apply to destruction only?

Yes.  The Int vs PvP Power weights shouldn't change much with other specs, but the values of haste/mastery/crit will all change drastically.  I can sim some values for Affliction later, but I was mainly doing this for RBGs so I only bothered with Destruction.

#4 Veev

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:51 AM

Alright, I ran some more simulations for different specs and with different raid buffs.  The stat weights varied a bit more than I expected them to.  It turns out that Int and PvP Power are so close together that it's going to be highly dependent on your current gear and your current gems.  E.g., having full PvP power may make Int slightly better, and changing to full Int may make PvP power slightly better.  So if you're really trying to min/max, you're probably going to need some kind of balance of the two, as well as figuring out how often you'll have a Kings-type buff up.

With all that said, here are 3 links for different stat weights based on my gear and based on currently having int gemmed:

Affliction with self buffs and mastery buff: http://www.wowhead.c...:33.22:100;gb=1
Affliction with self buffs and mastery+kings buffs: http://www.wowhead.c...:31.88:100;gb=1
Destruction with full raid buffs: http://www.wowhead.c...:32.49:100;gb=1

I'd mostly focus on comparing int vs spell power here.  Comparing haste vs mastery can be iffy for affliction, due to how the sim program values extra dot ticks.  I.e., if you're just 10 haste pts away from another dot tick, then haste will be worth 100x mastery, but if your next few haste points don't grant you a new dot tick, then maybe mastery is worth more, etc.

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:18 AM

This is old, around 15k Pvp power Intellect becomes better, for mages atleast, alltho it depends if you value crit or not.

#6 Filthpig

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostZerlog, on 21 March 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

This is old, around 15k Pvp power Intellect becomes better, for mages atleast, alltho it depends if you value crit or not.

No one has done anything like this for warlocks, any of this information can be valuable...

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostFilthpig, on 21 March 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

No one has done anything like this for warlocks, any of this information can be valuable...



there was a biiiig post at start of mop, explaining that int is better around 14.5k pvp power mark and seeing with full gear your around that mark if your doing rbgs or playing lets say RMP

#8 Thaya

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostVeev, on 21 March 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

Alright, I ran some more simulations for different specs and with different raid buffs.  The stat weights varied a bit more than I expected them to.  It turns out that Int and PvP Power are so close together that it's going to be highly dependent on your current gear and your current gems.  E.g., having full PvP power may make Int slightly better, and changing to full Int may make PvP power slightly better.  So if you're really trying to min/max, you're probably going to need some kind of balance of the two, as well as figuring out how often you'll have a Kings-type buff up.

With all that said, here are 3 links for different stat weights based on my gear and based on currently having int gemmed:

Affliction with self buffs and mastery buff: http://www.wowhead.c...:33.22:100;gb=1
Affliction with self buffs and mastery+kings buffs: http://www.wowhead.c...:31.88:100;gb=1
Destruction with full raid buffs: http://www.wowhead.c...:32.49:100;gb=1
I'd mostly focus on comparing int vs spell power here.  Comparing haste vs mastery can be iffy for affliction, due to how the sim program values extra dot ticks.  I.e., if you're just 10 haste pts away from another dot tick, then haste will be worth 100x mastery, but if your next few haste points don't grant you a new dot tick, then maybe mastery is worth more, etc.
I compared haste vs mastery extensively early on in MoP, it comes down to reaching the haste thresholds if they're within ~1000, and keeping haste/mastery within ~500 rating of each other. I did this for PvE though, it's a useless comparison in PvP because haste wins with its utility. (Also, it's not something specific to simcraft - reaching haste thresholds is an actual DPS increase.)

Int vs pvp power is gonna be a lot easier to compare. This is where plotting and overrides are useful in simcraft.
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#9 vomite

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:59 PM

My warlock now does 1.5% more damage, thank you good sir r1 here i come

#10 Ahlaundoh

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:56 PM

just go mastery as destro and aff
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pve the best

#11 Filthpig

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:30 AM

View PostAhlaundoh, on 22 March 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

just go mastery as destro and aff

Mastery > haste for demo as well

#12 Canadianpimp_613638

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:37 AM

Unless you edited the APL in Simcraft to reflect a damage breakdown more comparable to what it would be in PvP, I'm not sure how accurate it's going to be. Int vs PvP Power may be somewhat accurate, but haste vs mastery vs crit are going to be different because of how your damage breakdown will vary from a PvE fight.

Essentially you'll have a lot more damage coming from raw DoTs and your pet damage in PvP. In PvE, MG does about 40% of your damage (when you include the MG DoT ticks). I suspect it would be somewhere around 15-20% in arena.

Quote

I'd mostly focus on comparing int vs spell power here.  Comparing haste vs mastery can be iffy for affliction, due to how the sim program values extra dot ticks.  I.e., if you're just 10 haste pts away from another dot tick, then haste will be worth 100x mastery, but if your next few haste points don't grant you a new dot tick, then maybe mastery is worth more, etc.

About this - run a reforge plot for the two secondary stats you are trying to compare, say haste vs mastery. See where the graph "peaks" at, and add and subtract those stats to your shirt in the profile (like haste=500,mastery=-500). If you resim with that you'll find the true DPS gains from each point.

Edited by Canadianpimp_613638, 26 March 2013 - 06:44 AM.


#13 Thugonomics8

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:13 AM

While I was testing it seemed that Intellect outdoes PvP Power when you have buffs giving a spell power bonus of ~15% i.e Dark Intent and Mark of the Wild, with just DI it looked to be about the same and without either PvP power was better
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#14 Veev

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostCanadianpimp_613638, on 26 March 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

Unless you edited the APL in Simcraft to reflect a damage breakdown more comparable to what it would be in PvP, I'm not sure how accurate it's going to be. Int vs PvP Power may be somewhat accurate, but haste vs mastery vs crit are going to be different because of how your damage breakdown will vary from a PvE fight.

Essentially you'll have a lot more damage coming from raw DoTs and your pet damage in PvP. In PvE, MG does about 40% of your damage (when you include the MG DoT ticks). I suspect it would be somewhere around 15-20% in arena.



About this - run a reforge plot for the two secondary stats you are trying to compare, say haste vs mastery. See where the graph "peaks" at, and add and subtract those stats to your shirt in the profile (like haste=500,mastery=-500). If you resim with that you'll find the true DPS gains from each point.
Yeah, you're 100% right.  And I didn't customize SimCraft much other than experimenting with the diff combat modes (helterskelter, etc.), and deleting potions/flasks/infernal/doomguard from the rotation.

View PostThugonomics8, on 08 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

While I was testing it seemed that Intellect outdoes PvP Power when you have buffs giving a spell power bonus of ~15% i.e Dark Intent and Mark of the Wild, with just DI it looked to be about the same and without either PvP power was better
I think this is about right.  It's also worth noting that mastery is probably better than both if your only concern is DoT damage (but doesn't affect pet damage, haunt direct dmg, malefic grasp dmg, etc.).




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