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Speed of PvP


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#41 Raystigz

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

if anything this game is too slow paced / too many cds atm. wtb wotlk style 1 shatter, chaos bolt, or lava burst = 60% of your hp but you could do 1 flash heal = 50% of your hp (all of which were around a 1.3 sec cast)
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#42 methodman2

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostTaras, on 09 March 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think people are just remembering the super slow 30min games and think that's what I'm aiming for. Think of healer mana as being capped and limited to like 5 mins of healing. And if they use cooldowns and play efficiently it can stretch out to 6minutes. I don't think that's too long of a game.

newsflash, real healers (ie disc) go oom and heal for fuck all.

#43 Surel

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

Rofl, i quit this game because the gamepace was to slow in MoP, if anything we need to get back to WotlK playstyle. The faster the gamepace is the more an individualls skill gets favored, the slower the pace of the pvp combat is the more favored class/composition becomes. They should atleast incresse healing done, damage done/taken and mana cost by a certain percentage in 2v2 so the games are faster.

I remember enjoyed 2v2 in LK, i could stay in on weekends and play 2v2 with a mate the whole night because IT WAS TRULY FUN. After the launch of cataclysm and then later MoP. 2v2 became a bracket where you wanted really 1000 mmr so you could get fast ques and easy winns to cap as fast as possible.

Sure, im not saying LK was perfectly balanced, it had its flaws but it also had its charms and i enjoyed that season 7 & 8 the most of all seasons. I quit mop Half into the first season, i gave MoP a try because i didnt thinck it could get worse than cataclysm, apparently i was wrong, to be fair, season 10 in cata was pretty decent except for the MMR/rating exploits and i thinck season 12 would have been good if it wasnt for the pve gear. I quit mop without giving the rest of the seasons a try because the current core game mechanics of arena arent going to experience a bigger overhaul mid expansion, their just gonna adjust numbers wich isnt really enough to fix arena in this game.

Edited by Surel, 11 March 2013 - 10:24 AM.


#44 Hyrmine

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 12:45 PM

bring back s5

#45 Chromex

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 02:54 PM

10 thoughts because I don't want to write notes in class
1. For some, acceleration of gameplay = harder, which would then equate to make the game more rewarding for skilled play, yet for others the opposite is true. How can this be?
2. How can the rate of the game affect the overall competency, knowledge, reaction, of a player's capacity in his/her gameplay experience?
3. Does the way in which health bars move affect this?
4. Does the movement of players in turn allow or disallow game to be enhanced or rather unfair?
5. Should (1) player have the capacity regardless of how many cds being used or not, to kill another within 3,5,7,10,15 seconds?
6. Now, should the person they are killing, have to be CC'ed? Or Rather, can they be freely using cooldowns, or maybe healing while this timeline is going on? How much CC is required to kill another when in concerted effort either by oneself or with a teammate, or with two teammates?  
7. How much Healing should a healer do? How much ought they be able with Cooldowns? Ought, a healer, when using their cooldowns be able to negate a DPSer's Cds? Why or Why not?
8. What time length is suitable for a regular arena match to last? What is the average time of an arena match in the first place?
9. Within a 1.5 or 1sec GCD, do we reward the timing of one quality skill, or rather allow the continuous use of quality skills to be rewarded? Can we reward both?
10. Can the player be afforded with experience and proficiency in complex combinations with others, a circumstance that is equally valid for their class to respond, not only fairly, but also in the same way that is equally valid in more than 1 or 2 compositions?

#46 Taras

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostChromex, on 11 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

10 thoughts because I don't want to write notes in class
1. For some, acceleration of gameplay = harder, which would then equate to make the game more rewarding for skilled play, yet for others the opposite is true. How can this be?
2. How can the rate of the game affect the overall competency, knowledge, reaction, of a player's capacity in his/her gameplay experience?
3. Does the way in which health bars move affect this?
4. Does the movement of players in turn allow or disallow game to be enhanced or rather unfair?
5. Should (1) player have the capacity regardless of how many cds being used or not, to kill another within 3,5,7,10,15 seconds?
6. Now, should the person they are killing, have to be CC'ed? Or Rather, can they be freely using cooldowns, or maybe healing while this timeline is going on? How much CC is required to kill another when in concerted effort either by oneself or with a teammate, or with two teammates?  
7. How much Healing should a healer do? How much ought they be able with Cooldowns? Ought, a healer, when using their cooldowns be able to negate a DPSer's Cds? Why or Why not?
8. What time length is suitable for a regular arena match to last? What is the average time of an arena match in the first place?
9. Within a 1.5 or 1sec GCD, do we reward the timing of one quality skill, or rather allow the continuous use of quality skills to be rewarded? Can we reward both?
10. Can the player be afforded with experience and proficiency in complex combinations with others, a circumstance that is equally valid for their class to respond, not only fairly, but also in the same way that is equally valid in more than 1 or 2 compositions?

1. I think acceleration is always harder and more skillful. The question is should this be the kind of skill wow rewards/requires? And if so, to what degree? I think good reaction should be rewarded but not required as much in WoW. The main reason for that is majority of wow players do not have good reaction, so a relative "requirement" of having to react fast or you'll die is not a good idea.
-Being able to counterspell 0.5 sec cast (old school feldom) is good because it rewards good reaction time
-Dying because you were a bit slow pressing iceblock is bad because it punishes slow reaction.

2. I think the main effect is a barrier to entry for many players. They join a BG for the very first time, die in 3 seconds and decide to never pvp in their life again. The question I would ask is should wow rewards reaction times as much or more than knowledge/competency of game mechanics? I think knowledge of game mechanics (like other classes abilities, cooldowns, etc) and having figured out the best strategy against a class and then class combinations should be rewarded a level higher than good reaction and being able to press your keys well.

3. I think you mean to ask "does the speed of how health bars move effect this" since they always pretty much move the same way. And speed does effect it and it does take a certain type of skill. Is it the skill we want to test players on though?

4. Both? Movement enhances the game player. Movement can be considered unfair, think rogues with sprint while you had 30% crippling on you. Majority of players on slower connections/older pcs couldnt even face the rogue at that point.

5. I think a player should not be able to solo another player in that short of a time period. Given equal gear a player should need 60 seconds to 100-->0 a player. Healing on the other hand should probably take 20 seconds to heal a player from 10% to 100%. (Not exact numbers, but should give you a general picture)

6. You should not need CC to kill a player. CC should be helpful, like stun a player at 20% to prevent him from using a defensive cooldown, but even if the stun does not happen you should still be able to get a kill 10-20 seconds later. That's actually a very good point you bring out; right now it is required to use CC to get a kill. It shouldn't be a requirement, it should be helpful. Casting frostbolt and casting Sheep should probably be closer in value than they are right now.

7. A healer should be able to survive 1-2 dpsers on him, but run out of mana and die after a couple minutes. If a healer couldnt survive a single dps then there would be not be much benefit to having healers on your team. If using my example from earlier that a dps vs dps fight should last 60 seconds, then healer vs dps fight should probably last 120 seconds after which healer dies to out of mana.

8. On a broad spectrum I would say arena match should be able to last anywhere from 2 to 15minutes. But majority of them should last 5 to 10minutes.

9. Should reward both in my opinion. Using the correct skills should be rewarded first and foremost though. Timing and speed should be rewarded at gladiator levels.

10. You might want to reword this one. I'm not really sure what you asked.


Great questions sir, those are exactly the kind of things I was interested in.
Underwhelmed with WoW PvP since patch 4.0.6

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#47 Bloobungle

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 08:58 PM

-less dmg, fights last much longer
-less healing, healing up takes much longer
-healers run out of mana
-avoiding dmg matters not only to avoid death, but to avoid getting out of/behind on mana
-doing constant dmg matters


I'm pretty sure these all hold true. The problem we've been experiencing is purely related to the strength of individual cooldowns and their interaction with others. Couple in their ease of use and it's not difficult to see why certain compositions excel where others struggle.

Believe me, I'd much rather die after 7 minutes because I was outplayed. There's nothing worse than losing to an overwhelming onslaught of abilities. Promoting that sort of game play is terrible, but balancing around it isn't a simple task. Removing that strong offensive pressure will essentially eliminate the best defensive measures some teams can take.

#48 Tist

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:48 AM

Another big reason is simply that cooldowns got more and more powerful as time went on - or that they simply didn't exist in current iterations in TBC.

Nowadays the game is centered around these huge burst cooldowns and using defensive cooldowns to compensate.

Think rogue for example in TBC, classic ShS hemo.

All of the cooldowns used were basically either offensive OR defensive - either the rogue popped all his cooldowns going for the kill a la cloak vanish etc, or played cautiously and held them in case of danger instead.  

Now there's clear burst windows of "he popped Dance/blades" which means you either peel the rogue (good luck now) or pop defensive cooldowns yourself.

More or less every class was like this in TBC that I can recall from the top of my head - there wasn't any hugely significant singular cooldowns like there are rampant in every class today.

#49 thrudgel

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostZong, on 10 March 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

I really don't think PvP is that far off being balanced right now. A small buff to resil and we'll be looking great in my opinion. Damage is a little high but not too much(and if you go too far in the other direction you end up with stupidly long games).
Prepatch the games were def too slow. After the healing nerf any good Rsham kfc was so far ahead of Rdruid healing that the game seemed like you never had enough globals. It was still fun vs kfc, good pace. At least you never lost a game in the opener in s12 as compared to Vs rogues in certain seasons.

Other than that the only thing that made s12 a slow season was Spriest, it was almost like playing vs double healers. Unfortunatly a good kfc made having lifeswap and an occasional shield feel nessassary. But playing something like godcomp vs godcomp, was a bit like LSD vs LSD in season8. Wizard wars are slow and uninteresting for healers. Cleave vs cleave fast but too simple for healers.

Melee caster healer still best arena format for balance&complexity.

Edited by thrudgel, 12 March 2013 - 02:25 PM.





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