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#1 ardnut

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

Hi guys and girls,
The main problem I see for electric cars is the fact they have a limited range and then you need to recharge them. Recharging takes a long time compared to just filling up the tank with gas.

The solution seems simple to me and is already used with portable electronics. Why not just use replaceable batteries? Instead of having a gas station, you would have a battery station. You would have to have industry standard for batteries as you do with batteries that you use in remote controls do. Some cars would use one small batteries...trucks would use 10 big batteries...etc...etc.

It seems like an easy / obvious solution to me.
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#2 Hyuru

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:00 AM

Would cost too much in the long run.

#3 Pawzz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

The current problem with electriccars is that the batteries are too expensive and have a short life duration (few months) and cost 20-40k $ to replace. Replacable batteries would make that problem even worse.

#4 ardnut

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:28 AM

View PostPawzz, on 01 March 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

The current problem with electriccars is that the batteries are too expensive and have a short life duration (few months) and cost 20-40k $ to replace. Replacable batteries would make that problem even worse.

Well actually according to this article it's 12-15000 USD (assuming you meant USD when you said $)

The batteries would be the battery companies problem...not the drivers... so say if shell decided to do this... then the batteries would be their property.  The cost of replacing batteries would have to be included in their sale prices so this would work long term.  So say a battery lasted 100 charges (picking random numbers here) and the battery cost 15000 USD, then you would have to add 150 USD on to every battery rental.  So for this to work... you would probably need at least 400 charges per battery?  Is that even possible for todays technology?  I have no idea.

It would be interesting to see the comparison vs gas/petrol/diesel to see if it is cheaper or not

Edit: maybe a better idea would be for the state to provide the batteries and get the money back through taxing the battery providers (shell/BP/Etc).

Edited by ardnut, 01 March 2013 - 10:45 AM.

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#5 bareblar03

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:42 PM

Batteries degrade over time and lose their efficacy, you'd have to pay a ridiculous fee to counteract the price of constant new batteries. I'm sure if you were very rich you could swap out batteries constantly rather than charging but it wouldn't be cost effective for the average consumer.

The more reasonable method would be a system that converts engine strokes into pE and this engine would only kick in when the battery was running low, it wouldn't actually drive the car because that would lead to excess complication of the drivetrain interface. What this would allow the manufacturer to do is make a small engine that would produce very few emissions because its role would only be to charge a small battery every once in a while. The car would have a drivetrain driven by the electric motor and the battery would only have a small range - max ~30 miles (this is open to suggestion but the less battery weight the better) and would be charged intermittently. I'm not sure how it would respond to heavy load because there would obviously be a maximum rate of expenditure, usually at full throttle and the charging engine would have to be able to exceed this load to slowly charge the battery even under very heavy load (racetrack etc.)

I'd actually like to detail specifics and try and submit it to a company as an idea if it isn't already one.


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#6 BaklivaX

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

2 late bro i did it sorry
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#7 Athená

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

Theyre researching these new graphite 'wires' that apparently transfer electricity alot faster than copper. That would fix the charging duration.
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#8 ardnut

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 01:42 PM

View Postbareblar03, on 01 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Batteries degrade over time and lose their efficacy, you'd have to pay a ridiculous fee to counteract the price of constant new batteries. I'm sure if you were very rich you could swap out batteries constantly rather than charging but it wouldn't be cost effective for the average consumer.

The more reasonable method would be a system that converts engine strokes into pE and this engine would only kick in when the battery was running low, it wouldn't actually drive the car because that would lead to excess complication of the drivetrain interface. What this would allow the manufacturer to do is make a small engine that would produce very few emissions because its role would only be to charge a small battery every once in a while. The car would have a drivetrain driven by the electric motor and the battery would only have a small range - max ~30 miles (this is open to suggestion but the less battery weight the better) and would be charged intermittently. I'm not sure how it would respond to heavy load because there would obviously be a maximum rate of expenditure, usually at full throttle and the charging engine would have to be able to exceed this load to slowly charge the battery even under very heavy load (racetrack etc.)

I'd actually like to detail specifics and try and submit it to a company as an idea if it isn't already one.

Yes batteries do degrade over time...but if you put that into the cost of the battery rental it could work.  It all depends on how many times you can charge the battery before it needs replacing.
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#9 ardnut

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:42 PM

OK... I've done a little more research... http://the-grayline....-electric-cars/

According to this article you can get 2000 charges out of a $14000 battery... so that's $7 per charge.  You add that onto the rental price of the battery... costs around $5 to charge the battery.  So all you really have is the initial cost of buying all the batteries in the first place.
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#10 Nejim_Beshraavi

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

cold fusion is the only thing that will make electric cars spread, but then again if we succeed in making energy over fusion we don't need to worry about electricity and many other things.

but now the electric car will not succeed. the problem is not only in the low range of the driving distance but also in those many other people/firms involved in the "normal" cars f.eg all those mechanics, live from repairing normal cars. electric cars now can only be repaired  at the original manufacturer and are far more less in need of usual check ups like normal cars running on oil. so unless we don'T invent "free-energy" electronic cars will only be fun and hipster cars.
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#11 Vioz

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

Weight. Batteries for these cars weigh hundreds of pounds. You don't just carry one in you trunk,

#12 stcolbert

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 10:23 PM

View Postardnut, on 01 March 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

OK... I've done a little more research... http://the-grayline....-electric-cars/

According to this article you can get 2000 charges out of a $14000 battery... so that's $7 per charge.  You add that onto the rental price of the battery... costs around $5 to charge the battery.  So all you really have is the initial cost of buying all the batteries in the first place.
Jesus, think of the infrastructure, maintenance, operational costs, and I'm sure they'll want to make a profit....it would be a hell of a lot more money than that.

Furthermore, the US gets 50% of its electricity from coal which produces more nasty things than gasoline, not to mention the inefficiency of energy transfer, storage and transport.

Coming up with safe and clean energy sources that meet our demands is a prerequisite to implementing something like this.

In short, stop being such a hipster.
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#13 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:16 AM

I've taken a class on this, EE here hello, blah blah who cares.  Through a combination of posts, most people summarized everything already
  • The cost of batteries (I believe, at least when I took the class, they were working on a lithium ion batteries for vehicular usage and not nickel metal hydride batteries anymore.  I believe there are tradeoffs in using the two, maybe cost vs. efficiency?)
  • The weight of batteries in a car.
  • The space the batteries take up in a car.
  • The range an electric car can go in a single charge.
  • The infrastructure necessary.  (Think how many gas stations there are every so few miles.  You'd have to/want to have to have a similar number of charge station and that initial investment is huge.  Given the myriad of problems listed above, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of companies willing to take such a huge startup cost for a project that has so many flaws to begin with.)

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#14 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:19 AM

Electric cars are a good idea and something that can work.  In fact they and I THINK steam powered cars were far more popular than gasoline based cars until ... I dunno if it was a crankshaft thing that was implemented into gasoline cars or something else, but whatever it was, it allowed gasoline cars to be produced cheaply and efficiently.  Until electric car manufacturers find a way to even cheaply and efficiently produce their cars for the common consumer, it's hard to even touch the rest of the infrastructure problems.

I took this class like fuckin' ... 2.5 years ago? I wish more of the class would've stayed with me, even if a good part did, I just wish I remembered everything.  Was pretty interesting.

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#15 Slashgiggle

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

View PostSykeasaurus, on 02 March 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

Electric cars are a good idea and something that can work.  In fact they and I THINK steam powered cars were far more popular than gasoline based cars until ... I dunno if it was a crankshaft thing that was implemented into gasoline cars or something else, but whatever it was, it allowed gasoline cars to be produced cheaply and efficiently.  Until electric car manufacturers find a way to even cheaply and efficiently produce their cars for the common consumer, it's hard to even touch the rest of the infrastructure problems.

I took this class like fuckin' ... 2.5 years ago? I wish more of the class would've stayed with me, even if a good part did, I just wish I remembered everything.  Was pretty interesting.

Yeah they had electric cars back in the 1800s(late). Was a combo of massive oil fields being discovered in Texas and Firestone/Goodyear/Oil companies doing super shady things that killed off electric transportation.
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#16 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 05:36 AM

View PostSlashgiggle, on 02 March 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yeah they had electric cars back in the 1800s(late). Was a combo of massive oil fields being discovered in Texas and Firestone/Goodyear/Oil companies doing super shady things that killed off electric transportation.

yah

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#17 ardnut

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:05 AM

View PostSykeasaurus, on 02 March 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

I've taken a class on this, EE here hello, blah blah who cares.  Through a combination of posts, most people summarized everything already
  • The cost of batteries (I believe, at least when I took the class, they were working on a lithium ion batteries for vehicular usage and not nickel metal hydride batteries anymore.  I believe there are tradeoffs in using the two, maybe cost vs. efficiency?)
  • The weight of batteries in a car.
  • The space the batteries take up in a car.
  • The range an electric car can go in a single charge.
  • The infrastructure necessary.  (Think how many gas stations there are every so few miles.  You'd have to/want to have to have a similar number of charge station and that initial investment is huge.  Given the myriad of problems listed above, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of companies willing to take such a huge startup cost for a project that has so many flaws to begin with.)

Initial cost of the state / battery supplying companies buying the batteries is a huge obstacle... To supply a whole country with enough of them would probably be too costly to even make the idea work.  I think this is the only obstacle that cannot be overcome any time soon :(

Back to the drawing board.
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#18 Sykeasaurus

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:29 AM

I am sorry Ardnut :(

bk said:

I used to beat off alot, and fail all my classes


Insight said:

I figured he's a phony but I was secretly hoping to get pounded by someone famous.

View PostTw1zle, on 07 August 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

i wasnt aware that america was a country

i guess we learn things every day

#19 stcolbert

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:02 PM

View Postardnut, on 02 March 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

Initial cost of the state / battery supplying companies buying the batteries is a huge obstacle... To supply a whole country with enough of them would probably be too costly to even make the idea work.  I think this is the only obstacle that cannot be overcome any time soon :(

Back to the drawing board.
I guess you didn't read what I wrote.  It's not the only obstacle.


btw, electric motors are pretty fucking chill.  We have been using electric machinery in our mine (I think we are one of the only companies doing it in Canada) and they are better than the traditional diesel engines used.  When I say better I mean more powerful, more torque etc. not just cleaner.
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#20 FTRouslan

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:11 PM

I don't understand this fixation with cars. Cars suck as a reliable method of transportation: too expensive and too inefficient to be sustainable in the long run. We should be moving away from cars, airplanes, suburbs and the like of we want to live in a world afflicted by climate change, an energy/resource crisis, and a population steadily approaching a predicted 10 billion within the next half century.
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