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Projected Gladiator Statistics: Warriors & Hunters clear winners


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#41 Braindance

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 01 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Acknowledging my bias, speaking from a hunter/casterdps/healer perspective, the game always feels like its in a bad spot when warriors and Dks are viable/top tier (from ATC to TSG).  I don't know if it's b/c the classes have a high skill floor and low skill cap or are just plain easy to play, but the game feels bad and mongo.  

I always felt like regardless of what the other cheeze comps were (RLS, RMP, dot cleaves, beast cleave) you could at least formulate a plan to deal with them and "try" to execute, you had to play better than them to win but they won't overwhelming you with straight rush or bullshit abilities.
That is an illusion - if you look from a more global perspective, there is no difference between mongoing damage and mongoing ccs. Besides, I don't think any good warrior is less of a player compared to a good mage/sp or w/e. There is no point in comparing skill floors and skill caps and skill walls - a good player is a good player.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#42 Djandawg

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 01 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Acknowledging my bias, speaking from a hunter/casterdps/healer perspective, the game always feels like its in a bad spot when warriors and Dks are viable/top tier (from ATC to TSG).  I don't know if it's b/c the classes have a high skill floor and low skill cap or are just plain easy to play, but the game feels bad and mongo.  

I always felt like regardless of what the other cheeze comps were (RLS, RMP, dot cleaves, beast cleave) you could at least formulate a plan to deal with them and "try" to execute, you had to play better than them to win but they won't overwhelming you with straight rush or bullshit abilities.
Good post, I believe you made a hunter class progression post which was also really good.
I think everyone including warriors know the situation. Warriors can win without the awareness other classes need to have, without the knowledge of all enemy class abilities because they simply don't have the tools to interact with those, neither they need to, in fact choosing to do anything other than spamming unhealable damage is a proven losing formula.
Veev explains the warrior skill cap:

Quote

I often get asked: “what’s the easiest and most difficult class for arena?” Well, I think you can agree that I am being pretty impartial when I say that warrior is probably the easiest class to learn for arena. A good (read: effective) warrior focuses primarily on putting out insane amounts of damage and pressure, forcing the enemy team to play on the defensive for the majority of the match. The grace and finesse needed to play something like a rogue just isn’t there for warriors. When I think of rogues, I think of vanishing death coils, proper cooldown management, redirect kidneys, and usually relying on target swaps for a kill. When I think of warriors, I think more of the iconic “Hulk smash!“

As far as the most difficult class, I would probably pick something like a shadow priest. They have a wide range of tools available to use, and require excellent awareness since they need to be good at recognizing burst opportunities while also keeping a close watch on their teammates’ health and debuffs. And a good shadow priest isn’t one who just starts healing their teammates as soon as their health bar moves; they need to really judge the situation and understand exactly when they should be helping to heal, and when they shouldn’t be. Basically, they have much more to monitor than what a typical warrior does, causing them to have a reasonably higher skill cap.


Rest of the article: http://www.veevsvaul...ll-cap-dilemma/

#43 Wallirik

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:18 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 01 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Acknowledging my bias, speaking from a hunter/casterdps/healer perspective, the game always feels like its in a bad spot when warriors and Dks are viable/top tier (from ATC to TSG).

I agree so much with this.

#44 Hackattack3

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 01 March 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Good post, I believe you made a hunter class progression post which was also really good.
I think everyone including warriors know the situation. Warriors can win without the awareness other classes need to have, without the knowledge of all enemy class abilities because they simply don't have the tools to interact with those, neither they need to, in fact choosing to do anything other than spamming unhealable damage is a proven losing formula.
Veev explains the warrior skill cap:



Rest of the article: http://www.veevsvaul...ll-cap-dilemma/

Thanks for linking the Veev explanation, I actually couldn't find it when I was writing my response lol.

To Braindances point,

Mongo cc vs mongo dps, I would still argue mongo cc is "slightly" tougher b/c you have to cc AND do damage, meaning you have to be concerned with the positioning of several opponents.  Where is the healer, can I line up burst, and where are my teammates.  As a melee monkey you are basically thinking, "am I good to tunnel?  Did my partner land cc?  am I in LOS of my healer?".

In my opinion, highest skill cap is currently spriest for a dps class.  They have soo many tools and lining up burst can be difficult when trained (keeping orb procs down).

#45 affix

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:14 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 01 March 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

How is 39 glad Hunters vs. 36 Mages, 48 (DPS) Priests, 33 (DPS) Druids a "clear winner?"

Oh wait, it's Affix. I should be used to your anti-Hunter bias after all these years.
I only really looked at US statistics and it's more like 2:1 in favor of hunters, which is ignoring the fact that there's way, way more Mages playing arenas than Hunters.  Hunters are outperforming Mages for Gladiator at a 4:1 rate, adjusted for population.

View PostPandamcpanda, on 01 March 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

whoa guys, hunters are at 8.9% rep, lets stop the presses! hunters should be sub 5% like in most of the other seasons: http://www.arenajunk...ator-breakdown/

Don't worry though, for the highest  to second highest played class, all hunters are terrible players and should be less represented then any other class, including warlocks and rogues who have less then half the total amount of players.
Hunters having low arena representation but extremely high success at the top of the ladders suggests the opposite conclusion than you're trying to imply.

#46 fant0m8

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:29 AM

View Postaffix, on 05 March 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

I only really looked at US statistics and it's more like 2:1 in favor of hunters, which is ignoring the fact that there's way, way more Mages playing arenas than Hunters.  Hunters are outperforming Mages for Gladiator at a 4:1 rate, adjusted for population.

Yea I didn't see the EU part of the OP. Hunters certainly have too much DPS representation in the US. I would prefer to look at combined EU+US statistics though since the population is so small when only looking at one of the 2 regions.

Personally I don't care if they nerf both KFC and BM into the ground. I think Kettu is the only Hunter that likes BM, and he's played it through thick and thin for like 10+ seasons now. So he'll be fine.


I just don't like characterizing all Hunters the same as Warriors. Particularly when most Hunters want to play MM anyway, which is a very different spec than anything Warriors have ever done.


I see the KFC comp as defined by what the Warrior can do (at this point in the season at least, post BM nerfs), not the Hunter. When Warriors can succeed with almost any other 2 classes, why blame the other DPS? It's clearly a problem with the Warrior class. Always has been in the past too.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#47 Djandawg

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:10 AM

^ Not true. Hunters need to lose cc.

#48 fant0m8

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostDjandawg, on 06 March 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

^ Not true. Hunters need to lose cc.

That would be the dumbest way to nerf the class. Damage should be removed, or CC breaks.

If you take away their CC they're nothing more than a ranged Warrior (see: BM). Not my fault you're too terrible to avoid Hunter CC, most people are. Mages and Locks both have much better CC, and it doesn't make sense for Hunters to fall more behind the wizards in CC, assuming the damage outputs are similar (wizards also have better interrupts).
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#49 Tosan

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

View Postaffix, on 05 March 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

I only really looked at US statistics and it's more like 2:1 in favor of hunters, which is ignoring the fact that there's way, way more Mages playing arenas than Hunters.  Hunters are outperforming Mages for Gladiator at a 4:1 rate, adjusted for population.


Hunters having low arena representation but extremely high success at the top of the ladders suggests the opposite conclusion than you're trying to imply.

If hunters were the problem and not Warriors, you would see Hunters succeeding with more than 1 comp.  As Russet said, on the same token, Warriors are succeeding with pretty much any other DPS class in the game (TSG, Kittycleave, Turbo cleave, War/Spriest/Healer). KFC just happens to be the best variant because of the synergy of the combination.  Hunters have instant, hard to avoid damage, like all the melee classes, but Hunter's have the benefit of ranged CC (and when you already have PLENTY damage, CC gains value when heals are so potent).

There's a lot more to balance than just "this class has high representation, must be OP".  If hunters were gods they would be succeeding with more than 1 dps class.

#50 dionim

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 06 March 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

That would be the dumbest way to nerf the class. Damage should be removed, or CC breaks.

If you take away their CC they're nothing more than a ranged Warrior (see: BM). Not my fault you're too terrible to avoid Hunter CC, most people are. Mages and Locks both have much better CC, and it doesn't make sense for Hunters to fall more behind the wizards in CC, assuming the damage outputs are similar (wizards also have better interrupts).

everyone should be terrible at avoiding hunter cc, right?

mage and lock doenst have better cc than hunters,

4 instant cc's and 3 of then can be reset, all of them being on a 30s or less cd.
and its not hard to get a trap now with those pet cc's

#51 Tosan

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:52 AM

View Postdionim, on 06 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

everyone should be terrible at avoiding hunter cc, right?

mage and lock doenst have better cc than hunters,

4 instant cc's and 3 of then can be reset, all of them being on a 30s or less cd.
and its not hard to get a trap now with those pet cc's

Yeah I was fine with the silencing shot nerf, had to shave some of the instant CC off somewhere.

I agree that it's not hard to land traps against most teams, and if the hunter is missing traps constantly it's his fault for not doing it right.  Although that doesn't necessarily apply to hybrid teams (Shamans/Spriests).  Grounding + Mass Dispel are obnoxious as hell to deal with.  I fought Ele/Spriest/Pally once......good luck stopping both grounding and MD!  

But generally speaking, "hunter cc is so easy to stop" is only true if the hunter is derpy and doesn't know how to trap.

#52 dionim

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostTosan, on 06 March 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Yeah I was fine with the silencing shot nerf, had to shave some of the instant CC off somewhere.

I agree that it's not hard to land traps against most teams, and if the hunter is missing traps constantly it's his fault for not doing it right.  Although that doesn't necessarily apply to hybrid teams (Shamans/Spriests).  Grounding + Mass Dispel are obnoxious as hell to deal with.  I fought Ele/Spriest/Pally once......good luck stopping both grounding and MD!  

But generally speaking, "hunter cc is so easy to stop" is only true if the hunter is derpy and doesn't know how to trap.

I agree a 100% with you, wow is paper, rocks and scissor, shadow priest is the best suport class atm (need nerfs to adjust that)
but grounding and mass dispel, makes ALL cc harder to apply, not only hunter, hunter trap may look hard because its previsible that when he scatters you hes going for a trap, but almost all cc's is previsible, sheep (outside of pom) has a cast time and warns you before it land, fear the same (the new one that is castable), priest fear is meele range making it previsible too, even blind is previsible (most of times) because rogue is a meele class.

Hunter trap is just like any other cc in the game, has a strength (instant cast/ranged) and a weakness (have no target/delaytime to land), but has sheep strength's and weakness too, ofc those are two unique spells and should do better than the other at diferent scenarios.

I also agree with your first post too, hunter always had that much cc, and we all had to deal with it since ever,
the problem as you said, was: kfc has shockwave, warbringer, war fear, repeteance, blind, hoj plus all hunter cc.

what i think needs to be tuned down for hunter is, silence shot like they already did, pet cc should be castable (hunters dosnt need more instant cc, and its not a big deal having a 0,5 second cast for your pet), and the biggest problem that should be changed somehow is EXPLOSIVE TRAP, this spell is really dumb, like every knock out, and all should be changed to slow people for a big amount (like 70% for couple seconds) or make you (the guy who used the knock out) get away a couple yards from the target.

edit. ah forgot other thing, summoning another pet should not reset their habilitys (some coldowns may be lowered because of that, like pet sac and etc)

Edited by dionim, 06 March 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#53 fant0m8

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:45 AM

I agree on knockbacks. They have too binary of an effect right now. They should all be a much smaller distance but perhaps snare after knocking back.

View Postdionim, on 06 March 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

mage and lock doenst have better cc than hunters,

Mage and Lock CC is on a 0 second cooldown, I'm not sure what your point is with the cooldowns. Wizards clearly win in that department.

They also have a clear advantage because of range, I find it absolutely laughable that anyone would consider Hunter CC *better* than Mage or Warlock CC. Especially Mage. Hunter CC is 20 yard range unless you use the pet ability. (Which has a 1 minute cooldown, not 30 seconds.)

Here's a thought on that, kill the pet! It has shit stats and the Hunter has fewer ways to save it (or get it back) than any other class.

Silence is not a CC. It's a great ability, but it's also clearly worse than Counterspell. Also worse than spell lock assuming the Lock can get his pet up (and he has many tools to do so). No advantage there.


It's pretty obvious that you're just another person who refuses to learn how to counter Hunters, and therefore concludes that they're OP. Claiming that Mages/Locks have worse CC than Hunters is seriously the stupidest thing I've read on this forum in years.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#54 Braindance

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 04:50 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 07 March 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

I agree on knockbacks. They have too binary of an effect right now. They should all be a much smaller distance but perhaps snare after knocking back.



Mage and Lock CC is on a 0 second cooldown, I'm not sure what your point is with the cooldowns. Wizards clearly win in that department.

They also have a clear advantage because of range, I find it absolutely laughable that anyone would consider Hunter CC *better* than Mage or Warlock CC. Especially Mage. Hunter CC is 20 yard range unless you use the pet ability. (Which has a 1 minute cooldown, not 30 seconds.)

Here's a thought on that, kill the pet! It has shit stats and the Hunter has fewer ways to save it (or get it back) than any other class.

Silence is not a CC. It's a great ability, but it's also clearly worse than Counterspell. Also worse than spell lock assuming the Lock can get his pet up (and he has many tools to do so). No advantage there.


It's pretty obvious that you're just another person who refuses to learn how to counter Hunters, and therefore concludes that they're OP. Claiming that Mages/Locks have worse CC than Hunters is seriously the stupidest thing I've read on this forum in years.
You've been away for too long man

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...




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