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#1 affix

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

Originally posted this on the PTR forum so a lot of the writing is geared more towards that audience, but I thought I might as well post it here as well:

There's a concept I think of as "cooldown commitment" when it comes to dealing damage that I think is really important to recognize. Most burst sequences require that you blow a lot of cooldowns before the damage ever arrives. Warrior's have to blow Avatar/Reck/Trinket/Skull Banner/etc. to swifty people. Rogues have to blow shadow blades + dance. Mages on live have to blow trinket+orb+deep freeze+icy veins+alter time. This is the standard damage model for burst.

In 5.2, Mage cooldown commitment for our biggest burst is quite low. We can turtle until Incanter's Ward is fully absorbed (very easy to guarantee), nova or frostjaw someone, and our only serious cooldown we have to commit for max burst is a damage trinket before our first Frostbolt. If you want to be conservative, your first Frostbolt doesn't really need to have trinket popped, you can just cast it and trinket+icy veins afterwards. Once that frostbolt is in the air, then you can decide to commit to the burst attempt depending on what defensives were used in response to the impending frostbolt. Either you use none, and you baited their cooldowns for nothing, or tons, and you blow people up with pom+alter time+deep freeze frostbolt shatters.

We actually don't have a spare GCD in our 'standard' 5.2 burst sequence to use things like Frozen Orb. That can be saved for in between bursts to build up procs and increase our sustained damage. You can risk telegraphing your burst by using it before the first frostbolt, but it's not usually a good call.

The standard burst model is still fairly difficult for most players to deal with, as few of them require incorruptible casts. This results in a lot of forum QQ because the average player can't tell when huge burst is coming based on subtle instant cast CDs, but is fairly easy to figure out if you're paying attention to the right stuff (Did that Mage use alter time with FoF/BF up? Did that Warrior use Avatar+Reck or just Reck? Did that Rogue dance with shadow blades up?). The 5.2 Mage model has the opposite problem: very little cooldown commitment, but interruptible. The result is that we can try, over and over again, to set up game ending burst, and the first time it isn't recognized and prevented, the cooldown barrage follows and you die without being able to control your character.

These kinds of subtleties aren't usually discussed on these forums and this is probably better suited for its own topic, but 5.2 is going to give a lot of people grief because whereas right now, Mage burst is a game ending threat vs. well geared players every 1.5-3 minutes, on PTR right now we're ALWAYS a threat as long as we save our important burst cooldowns for the times when our small cooldown commitment damage combinations are still enough to guarantee a kill when appropriately followed by uncounterable burst.

One could argue that this is the upside of opening up your defensive tree to interrupts, and that there's going to be times now when we get blown up with no ability to react because we committed our Frost tree to a kill attempt, but I'm not sure that's a big enough disadvantage with interrupts being a shorter duration now than they have been in the past when Mages casted (interrupts used to be as long as 10 seconds).

Food for thought!

edit: The more I think about this problem, the more I see the 'frostbolt does better damage than instants' model maybe only making sense in an environment where melee don't have too-high uptime, and healers actually have to cast. But right now, instants STILL need to be very high, or else every game becomes "train the mage" with guaranteed success. Frostbolt as an ideal spell to cast, and instant casts less threatening than they are now, may be a design that has to wait for 6.0. I'm worried for how they'll adjust the class in light of Frostbolt's buffs, there's no clear path towards an effective class that is neither too strong nor too weak at high levels of play, with Frostbolt staying how it is right now.

#2 Braindance

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

View Postaffix, on 21 February 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

This is not feasible without massive repercussions on PvE and it would require cooldowns so strong, avatar and recklessness combined could seem like mere trinkets.

The problem is, even if you don't cast you do way, way, way too much damage. It is the first time in the history of wow that mages can pull the same end game damage as locks on the scoreboards. Even on live pvp mage damage could use a nerf.  Traditionally mages had the best control out of every other class and strong burst once in a while. Right now you still retain some of that control coupled with tremendous damage.

I do agree, your damage should shift towards using cooldowns but it has to be toned down significantly outside of them.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#3 affix

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostBraindance, on 21 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

This is not feasible without massive repercussions on PvE and it would require cooldowns so strong, avatar and recklessness combined could seem like mere trinkets.
I think you forgot to quote anything so I don't know what you're referring to here

Quote

The problem is, even if you don't cast you do way, way, way too much damage. It is the first time in the history of wow that mages can pull the same end game damage as locks on the scoreboards.
It's also the first time we've had multitarget pressure via Nether Tempest - we don't, by the way, compete with locks on damage done in arenas, Affliction does ~33% more damage per game than Frost in an average game.

Quote

I do agree, your damage should shift towards using cooldowns but it has to be toned down significantly outside of them.
That wasn't at all what I was implying - I think you should reread the post.  This thread has nothing to do with how much damage Mages do during burst phases vs. sustained damage.  It's about how many cooldowns a class must commit during their burst setup period differing from other classes.

#4 Regent

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:58 PM

I really don't like how things are on the ptr, and wish they would go back towards the TBC style of having a few cooldowns that usually were best used over time instead of like it is on the PTR. Blow all your CDS and gib people, and then blow all your defensives as they try to gib you. It is like this for almost every class currently. Instead of getting rid of "s12 warrior style play" they made every class s12 warriors.

#5 Filthpig

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:22 AM

View PostRegent, on 21 February 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

I really don't like how things are on the ptr, and wish they would go back towards the TBC style of having a few cooldowns that usually were best used over time instead of like it is on the PTR. Blow all your CDS and gib people, and then blow all your defensives as they try to gib you. It is like this for almost every class currently. Instead of getting rid of "s12 warrior style play" they made every class s12 warriors.

The BC play style was actually quite boring. It's been a few years since that was current content so let me remind you of what it was. Do a little damage to get the healer to use some mana, pop your only damage cooldown and try and kill someone while their healer was oom.


I personally liked it in wrath most when you had few cooldowns and you had to use them at the perfect time in order to use them most efficiently/effectively (ie. don't use your port if the warrior's bladestorm is off CD or else you're dead.) Damage was much more under control too, it was higher as a whole I think, but during cooldowns it didn't spike up like crazy except in comps like ATC and Beast Cleave or some wizards.

#6 Braindance

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:25 AM

View Postaffix, on 21 February 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

I think you forgot to quote anything so I don't know what you're referring to here


It's also the first time we've had multitarget pressure via Nether Tempest - we don't, by the way, compete with locks on damage done in arenas, Affliction does ~33% more damage per game than Frost in an average game.


That wasn't at all what I was implying - I think you should reread the post.  This thread has nothing to do with how much damage Mages do during burst phases vs. sustained damage.  It's about how many cooldowns a class must commit during their burst setup period differing from other classes.
My post's main point  is that in order for you to keep the same dps as now by introducing cds the damage outside of them would be close to 0 whilst during the cds it would be overkill. That's why your damage has to be nerfed first and then cd oriented play could be introduced.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#7 affix

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:26 AM

View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

My post's main point  is that in order for you to keep the same dps as now by introducing cds the damage outside of them would be close to 0 whilst during the cds it would be overkill. That's why your damage has to be nerfed first and then cd oriented play could be introduced.
I understand what you're saying, but it's responding to something that has literally nothing to do with what I was talking about.  I'm not asking for more or less burst for Mages, the topic is about the mechanism by which classes do damage, and at what point they can abort a kill attempt without committing long CDs.

#8 Braindance

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 01:30 AM

View Postaffix, on 22 February 2013 - 01:26 AM, said:

I understand what you're saying, but it's responding to something that has literally nothing to do with what I was talking about.  I'm not asking for more or less burst for Mages, the topic is about the mechanism by which classes do damage, and at what point they can abort a kill attempt without committing long CDs.
And I completely agree with the mechanism - all I'm saying is that in order to introduce such a mechanism several adjustments have to be made.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#9 Baht

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

And I completely agree with the mechanism - all I'm saying is that in order to introduce such a mechanism several adjustments have to be made.

i dont think you understand what he means still. he's not talking about the dmg anyone does. he's saying that for other classes they need to pop their shit and go for kill, thus wasting their cds if it doesnt suceed, while mages dont need to pop their cds untill the target is basicly trapped and its a free kill. so while other classes have a risk to waste their cds mages dont.

Edited by Baht, 22 February 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#10 Cocakoala

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:32 AM

tl dr

Edited by Cocakoala, 22 February 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#11 Braindance

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostBaht, on 22 February 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

i dont think you understand what he means still. he's not talking about the dmg anyone does. he's saying that for other classes they need to pop their shit and go for kill, thus wasting their cds if it doesnt suceed, while mages dont need to pop their cds untill the target is basicly trapped and its a free kill. so while other classes have a risk to waste their cds mages dont.
Im saying the same thing - in order for mages this kind of playstyle their sustained has to be nerfed. I've been saying the same thing since the first post

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#12 affix

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

Im saying the same thing - in order for mages this kind of playstyle their sustained has to be nerfed. I've been saying the same thing since the first post
To have what kind of playstyle?  Man, seriously, reread the OP.  I'm not asking for any kind of a redistribution of burst vs. sustained damage.  Please, try to comprehend the post.

Edited by affix, 22 February 2013 - 03:02 AM.


#13 Drake

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 03:07 AM

Good news: FB buff downscaled from +52% to +32% while keeping the stacking bonus;

Bad news: Mages still can global you solo using 2 <=30s CDs.

#14 Hackattack3

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 04:21 AM

View PostBraindance, on 21 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

This is not feasible without massive repercussions on PvE and it would require cooldowns so strong, avatar and recklessness combined could seem like mere trinkets.

The problem is, even if you don't cast you do way, way, way too much damage. It is the first time in the history of wow that mages can pull the same end game damage as locks on the scoreboards. Even on live pvp mage damage could use a nerf.  Traditionally mages had the best control out of every other class and strong burst once in a while. Right now you still retain some of that control coupled with tremendous damage.

I do agree, your damage should shift towards using cooldowns but it has to be toned down significantly outside of them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.


On topic,

As a druid, I have felt mages benefited from a lack of cooldown commitment since MOP was introduced.  Old version of frost bomb and fire blast glyph, a mage could basically deep + burst HEAVY without using any serious Cds.  I can barkskin one, trinket the next, barkskin the 3rd, and what do I do on the 4th one?  It just felt like a mage could keep swapping with a deep and bursting until I was out of defensives.


I have not been on the PTR but I feel that on live mages finally feel like they are in a good/balanced place.

#15 Djandawg

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:02 PM

In order to balance the damage of casted spells, first the melee needs to lose extra mobility/stuns/interrupts added in Mop, same way caster instant cc.

#16 [email protected]

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostRegent, on 21 February 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

I really don't like how things are on the ptr, and wish they would go back towards the TBC style of having a few cooldowns that usually were best used over time instead of like it is on the PTR. Blow all your CDS and gib people, and then blow all your defensives as they try to gib you. It is like this for almost every class currently. Instead of getting rid of "s12 warrior style play" they made every class s12 warriors.

Is that what its like back in the 1800 bracket?
Posted Image
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#17 Moridinn

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:30 PM

Very good post Affx. Unfortunately, most of the people who post here frequently do not have the brains to understand what you're trying to say (as the first bunch of replies clearly show), yet decide to "contribute" anyway, thus polluting the thread and derailing the discussion off topic.

I'll give them a TL;DR for you:
- Right now (on live) hard casting as a mage is hardly ever worth it
- On the PTR, the damage of frostbolt is buffed, which makes hard casting worthwhile (good)
- However, the damage from CDs and instants for mages is still as good on the PTR as it is on live
- This results in a situation where you can do good burst just hardcasting, forcing CDs without using your own, then getting a guaranteed kill with your own CDs later
- The obvious solution to this would be to lower the damage possible by using CDs + instants
- However, with the current metagame with high melee uptime, this would result in a "train the mage, prevent him from casting, win the game"

Consequently, making hard casting worthwhile right now puts mages over the top, and bringing them in line by nerfing their burst with CDs+instants, without dramatically altering the metagame (i.e. a major patch required, possibly even an expansion), would ruin mages.

Conclusion? Keep them as is. Do not make hard casting worthwhile until able to make a major metagame change which makes hard casting possible, which in turn will allow removing their burst from just popping CDs+instants. Then, we will have mages back where they should be (TBC/LK playstyle).

Not exactly a TL;DR, but yeah...

Edited by Moridinn, 22 February 2013 - 06:33 PM.


#18 Braindance

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostMoridinn, on 22 February 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Very good post Affx. Unfortunately, most of the people who post here frequently do not have the brains to understand what you're trying to say (as the first bunch of replies clearly show), yet decide to "contribute" anyway, thus polluting the thread and derailing the discussion off topic.

I'll give them a TL;DR for you:
- Right now (on live) hard casting as a mage is hardly ever worth it
- On the PTR, the damage of frostbolt is buffed, which makes hard casting worthwhile (good)
- However, the damage from CDs and instants for mages is still as good on the PTR as it is on live
- This results in a situation where you can do good burst just hardcasting, forcing CDs without using your own, then getting a guaranteed kill with your own CDs later
- The obvious solution to this would be to lower the damage possible by using CDs + instants
- However, with the current metagame with high melee uptime, this would result in a "train the mage, prevent him from casting, win the game"

Consequently, making hard casting worthwhile right now puts mages over the top, and bringing them in line by nerfing their burst with CDs+instants, without dramatically altering the metagame (i.e. a major patch required, possibly even an expansion), would ruin mages.

Conclusion? Keep them as is. Do not make hard casting worthwhile until able to make a major metagame change which makes hard casting possible, which in turn will allow removing their burst from just popping CDs+instants. Then, we will have mages back where they should be (TBC/LK playstyle).

Not exactly a TL;DR, but yeah...

Affix
well geared players every 1.5-3 minutes, on PTR right now we're ALWAYS a threat as long as we save our important burst cooldowns for the times when our small cooldown commitment damage combinations are still enough to guarantee a kill when appropriately followed by uncounterable burst.
Me
I do agree, your damage should shift towards using cooldowns but it has to be toned down significantly outside of them.
Affix
That wasn't at all what I was implying - I think you should reread the post.  This thread has nothing to do with how much damage Mages do during burst phases vs. sustained damage.  It's about how many cooldowns a class must commit during their burst setup period differing from other classes.
Me
My post's main point is that in order for you to keep the same dps as now by introducing cds the damage outside of them would be close to 0 whilst during the cds it would be overkill. That's why your damage has to be nerfed first and then cd oriented play could be introduced.
Affix
I understand what you're saying, but it's responding to something that has literally nothing to do with what I was talking about.  I'm not asking for more or less burst for Mages, the topic is about the mechanism by which classes do damage, and at what point they can abort a kill attempt without committing long CDs.
Me
And I completely agree with the mechanism - all I'm saying is that in order to introduce such a mechanism several adjustments have to be made.
Fruityloopz
he's saying that for other classes they need to pop their shit and go for kill, thus wasting their cds if it doesnt suceed, while mages dont need to pop their cds untill the target is basicly trapped and its a free kill. so while other classes have a risk to waste their cds mages dont.
Me
Im saying the same thing - in order for mages this kind of playstyle their sustained has to be nerfed. I've been saying the same thing since the first post

If you can't see that we are saying almost the same thing then I don't know what to say.

In order to introduce a playstyle that revolves around cds (that you have to commit) in order to do game ending damage, first you have to nerf sustained mage damage, so that the damage is shifted towards those cds and burst sequences revolve around them, meaning you fuck up your cds, you lose the kill.  

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#19 Hackattack3

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostBraindance, on 22 February 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:



Please allow me to try to explain the subtle point I feel you are missing.  It is not as simple as "sustained damage too high" b/c not all sustained damage is the same.  Afflic locks have extremely high sustained damage but they are not very scary, b/c their damage is relatively smooth.  Spreading and swapping dots, high pressure at first but then tapers off.

Frost mages, by nature, at not a dot class and relatively bursty.  They rely on burst every 10-15 sec, or longer if they use CDs like frost orb, to maintain "sustained dps".  The problem that I think Affix is seeing on PTR, which is the same problem mages had with the old frostbomb and fireblast glyph, is that the regular rotation burst is too high and forces defensive CDs.  

The conversation is not about popping offensive CDs, it is about forcing defensive CDs without needing to "commit" your own offensive CDs.

#20 Braindance

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 22 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Please allow me to try to explain the subtle point I feel you are missing.  It is not as simple as "sustained damage too high" b/c not all sustained damage is the same.  Afflic locks have extremely high sustained damage but they are not very scary, b/c their damage is relatively smooth.  Spreading and swapping dots, high pressure at first but then tapers off.

Frost mages, by nature, at not a dot class and relatively bursty.  They rely on burst every 10-15 sec, or longer if they use CDs like frost orb, to maintain "sustained dps".  The problem that I think Affix is seeing on PTR, which is the same problem mages had with the old frostbomb and fireblast glyph, is that the regular rotation burst is too high and forces defensive CDs.  

The conversation is not about popping offensive CDs, it is about forcing defensive CDs without needing to "commit" your own offensive CDs.
I like you man but I just give up - it's obvious no one actually read my posts beyond a few keywords. I'm too tired of saying the same thing over and over again. Burst every 10-15 seconds ain't burst no more - it's sustained. I'm out.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...




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