43 replies to this topic

[zaeya]

Crawthz, on 05 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

If 5.2 doesn't change the gamestyle from 2-3 globals killing you(Powershot + Warrior's Swifty), I will prefer Ice Barrier for that job.
If it does change it into shadowcleave/lsd2 kinda dot-style game, then it's overpowered.

My initial thoughts were that you could drop down big hits down with this if the spell was to have say 100% spell power efficiency. Like 100k->80k and from small hits like 10k->7k, 1k->700 and so on. Now it's useless against big hits basically.

[Crawthz]

zaeya, on 05 February 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

You do know once that thing is fixed in 5.2, it does 200k+ dmg..

[affix]

Talbadar, on 05 February 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

And how is absorbing multiple 4000s in a row bad in a game where your death log contains 30 attacks that killed you? If anything 30% may be too powerful.

It's really not very good.  One is barrier is what, 65k unbuffed?  That means that you need to take about 16 shattered ice lances in a row with Flameglow on to equal the mitigation of ONE ice barrier.

It's unlikely it will ever be a good option at a 20% coefficient.  Even at 50% it probably wouldn't be great.  It doesn't do enough to save us at times when we're taking massive spike damage.  4k off of a 80k frostfire bolt or 100k devouring plague isn't even noticeable.  Almost completely absorbing it, though, makes a huge difference.  Ice Barrier being cooldown based also means it's effective even when not being trained, as when you get swapped to you can absorb two barriers worth in a row.

The "-30% to white damage or dots is strong" argument doesn't make sense because ice barrier absorbs ALL of that damage when it's up.  the only comparison that makes sense is ice barrier vs. flameglow, and ice barrier seems clearly better on paper.  The only real upsides are that you don't have to ever cast it (no more 'should I block or cast ice barrier this GCD?  oops dead), and it can't be dispelled.  Other than that, the straight mitigation and burst-absorption of barrier seems way better.

stoked for tier 1 blazing speed that doesn't replace blink!  speedy gonzales mage spec inc

[Nadagast]

Crawthz, on 05 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

If 5.2 doesn't change the gamestyle from 2-3 globals killing you(Powershot + Warrior's Swifty), I will prefer Ice Barrier for that job.
If it does change it into shadowcleave/lsd2 kinda dot-style game, then it's overpowered.

My initial thoughts were that you could drop down big hits down with this if the spell was to have say 100% spell power efficiency. Like 100k->80k and from small hits like 10k->7k, 1k->700 and so on. Now it's useless against big hits basically.

If you look at Recount much, you'll notice that while, yes, there are times where you get hit for over 60k, the vast majority of attacks hit for under 20k.  With the current numbers, Flameglow is going to be OP.  I also think it doesn't fit with the Mage class flavor very well...  It feels like more of a Warlock thing.  Warlocks have always been tankier, Mages have relied on mobility and CC to survive.

affix, on 05 February 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

It's really not very good.  One is barrier is what, 65k unbuffed?  That means that you need to take about 16 shattered ice lances in a row with Flameglow on to equal the mitigation of ONE ice barrier.

It's unlikely it will ever be a good option at a 20% coefficient.  Even at 50% it probably wouldn't be great.  It doesn't do enough to save us at times when we're taking massive spike damage.  4k off of a 80k frostfire bolt or 100k devouring plague isn't even noticeable.  Almost completely absorbing it, though, makes a huge difference.  Ice Barrier being cooldown based also means it's effective even when not being trained, as when you get swapped to you can absorb two barriers worth in a row.

The "-30% to white damage or dots is strong" argument doesn't make sense because ice barrier absorbs ALL of that damage when it's up.  the only comparison that makes sense is ice barrier vs. flameglow, and ice barrier seems clearly better on paper.  The only real upsides are that you don't have to ever cast it (no more 'should I block or cast ice barrier this GCD?  oops dead), and it can't be dispelled.  Other than that, the straight mitigation and burst-absorption of barrier seems way better.

Have a look at Recount.  Most of the hits you take, even when dying in a burst, are small hits.  I would guess that there have been very few times this expansion where you've died in less than 16 total hits.  It happens, but it's much more rare than you think.  There's a tendency to only remember the most salient things, like 80k hits, and forget about the other 20 5k DoT ticks/autoattacks that actually contributed more to your death than the 80k.  Flameglow also makes it harder to gain pressure at all on a Mage.  It'll keep you topped more.

Quote

stoked for tier 1 blazing speed that doesn't replace blink!  speedy gonzales mage spec inc

In my opinion, this is a terrible change for the game.  The game needs mobility chilled out all around, not more insane mobility.

Edited by Nadagast, 05 February 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[affix]

Nadagast, on 05 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

If you look at Recount much, you'll notice that while, yes, there are times where you get hit for over 60k, the vast vast majority of attacks are under 20k.  With the current numbers, Flameglow is going to be OP.  I also think it doesn't fit with the Mage class flavor very well...  It feels like more of a Warlock thing.  Warlocks have always been tankier, Mages have relied on mobility and CC to survive.

ice barrier works just as well against 20k hits than it does against 60k hits though.  flameglow is the only one of the two that negatively scales with how hard you're being hit.  More to the point, I feel like when your healer gets CC'd and you have two players bursting on you, ice barrier is the one that is going to keep you alive till he's out of CC, not Flameglow.

Put another way:  Assuming on average you get hit by 50k damage per ability during burst and you have 20k spell power, it will mitigate 35.5k damage on a 400k health bar.  It's just not good.

Edited by affix, 05 February 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[Crawthz]

Nadagast, on 05 February 2013 - 08:17 PM, said:

If you look at Recount much, you'll notice that while, yes, there are times where you get hit for over 60k, the vast vast majority of attacks are under 20k.  With the current numbers, Flameglow is going to be OP.  I also think it doesn't fit with the Mage class flavor very well...  It feels like more of a Warlock thing.  Warlocks have always been tankier, Mages have relied on mobility and CC to survive.

Yea I agree, it feels like a warlock kinda talent, but then again; every single class has so many ways to get out of mage cc or counter it and NT breaking polymorphs, RoF and both novas in 2-3 seconds and casting has been made a hell of an effort, it is no longer the CC we need to rely on to survive.

Then again, I feel those under 20k hits are passively healed up(riptide, healingstream, rejuv, holyshock ect...) by my healer and those huge hits 60k and above is my Ice Barriers + rest of my toolkits job to deal with. Against dotcleaves like shadowplay though, Flameglow is going to be insane with Magearmor

[Nadagast]

affix, on 05 February 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

ice barrier works just as well against 20k hits than it does against 60k hits though.  flameglow is the only one of the two that negatively scales with how hard you're being hit.  More to the point, I feel like when your healer gets CC'd and you have two players bursting on you, ice barrier is the one that is going to keep you alive till he's out of CC, not Flameglow.

Put another way:  Assuming on average you get hit by 50k damage per ability during burst and you have 20k spell power, it will mitigate 35.5k damage on a 400k health bar.  It's just not good.

You will not get hit for anywhere near 50k average damage per ability during burst.  Also, keep in mind that you'll go into the burst with a higher health percentage than with Ice Barrier.  Also, Flameglow will mitigate much more damage over time than Ice Barrier.  If Ice Barrier absorbs 60k, you only have to be hit 15 times in 30 seconds, which is basically nothing.

[affix]

Nadagast, on 05 February 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

You will not get hit for anywhere near 50k average damage per ability during burst.

Depends on what kind of average we're talking about.  That seems like a really shady answer but bear with me.  Take Mage burst during DF for example:

~4 Frozen Orb ticks for ~15k (16k absorb)
~3x ice lance for ~70k (12k absorb)
~1x frostfire bolt for 85k (4k absorb)

This damage averages to about 45k per ability, but the total absorption is only 9% of the damage done.  One ice barrier is twice as much as that.  If you weren't being pressured before the stun, you could have two ice barriers for 4 times the damage.

The backloaded nature of ice barrier's cooldown base absorption, coupled with the fact that it doesn't negatively scale by average ability damage, makes me think it'll end up mitigating a lot more.  It is balanced against the fact that it is dispellable and requires a GCD.  I don't think Flameglow will be a clear winner by any means.  In fact, I kind of suspect people won't use it much at all.  Too early to say for sure obviously

Quote

Also, keep in mind that you'll go into the burst with a higher health percentage than with Ice Barrier.  Also, Flameglow will mitigate much more damage over time than Ice Barrier.  If Ice Barrier absorbs 60k, you only have to be hit 15 times in 30 seconds, which is basically nothing.

Mitigation over 30 seconds is a meaningless statistic, though, because in 30 seconds a healer will be healing you, and you'll be peeled at some point, at which point flameglow is useless but ice barrier's CD is still ticking away.  Burst mitigation is king, but that said, I'm honestly not convinced flameglow will equate to more mitigation over time either.  Especially in a blazing speed build.

[Claynz]

Talbadar, on 05 February 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

And how is absorbing multiple 4000s in a row bad in a game where your death log contains 30 attacks that killed you? If anything 30% may be too powerful.

wait wait wait... you saying that the classes with dual wielding will almost do no damage? my auto attacks as ilvl 489 enhance hits for 6k MH on mage and 2k off hand will now get neglected?  or is it a % of that dmg im a bit confused.

edit: think i got it so its like 30% less of my 6k/2k auto attack dmg, useless auto attack is useless.

[hairpiece]

Claynz, on 05 February 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

wait wait wait... you saying that the classes with dual wielding will almost do no damage? my auto attacks as ilvl 489 enhance hits for 6k MH on mage and 2k off hand will now get neglected?  or is it a % of that dmg im a bit confused.

its only 30% damage absorbed up to a max of 20% of your spellpower


so if you main hand for 6k and a mage has 20k spellpower you will only get 1.8k taken off your attack i believe

[Crawthz]

hairpiece, on 05 February 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

its only 30% damage absorbed up to a max of 20% of your spellpower

Other way around, it's 20% of spellpower absorbed or 30% of the total hit at maximum.

[Dizzeeyo]

affix, on 05 February 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

stoked for tier 1 blazing speed that doesn't replace blink!  speedy gonzales mage spec inc

inc? the talent is already the best in the row for rbgs and the best for arena with a healer vs everything but wizardcleave lol

[affix]

Crawthz, on 05 February 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Other way around, it's 20% of spellpower absorbed or 30% of the total hit at maximum.

What he said means exactly the same thing as this.

[saska¨¨1296682067]

flameglow is basically better versus everything except perhaps warior with those 80k crits with cds, even warrior teams are argueable since you have iceblock for cds anyway.
hunters already dispel you, so does shaman teams, casters in general are dot reliant and the abosrb potential there is alot better than shield anyway

Edited by saska¨¨1296682067, 05 February 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[Maticzor]

Meh, probably will be good against dot cleaves but not bursty comps. But if mages got blazing speed + blink .. this means less ppl will go for mages perhaps.

[Dizzeeyo]

saska¨¨1296682067, on 05 February 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

flameglow is basically better versus everything except perhaps warior with those 80k crits with cds, even warrior teams are argueable since you have iceblock for cds anyway.
hunters already dispel you, so does shaman teams, casters in general are dot reliant and the abosrb potential there is alot better than shield anyway

precisely

Maticzor, on 05 February 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Meh, probably will be good against dot cleaves but not bursty comps. But if mages got blazing speed + blink .. this means less ppl will go for mages perhaps.

once again, i have no idea why people think moving blazing speed is a buff, or why people are not using the talent already when its already stupidly good vs melee and kfc

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 05 February 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Maticzor]

Dizzeeyo, on 05 February 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

once again, i have no idea why people think moving blazing speed is a buff, or why people are not using the talent already when its already stupidly good vs melee and kfc

mmm so before you had to pick either blazing speed or ice barrier. Now you can have blazing speed + ice barrier.. Sounds like a buff to me considering pom ring nerf

[Dizzeeyo]

Maticzor, on 05 February 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

mmm so before you had to pick either blazing speed or ice barrier. Now you can have blazing speed + ice barrier.. Sounds like a buff to me considering pom ring nerf

ice barrier is useless vs spam purge teams and of limited use vs teams that simply one shot the barrier when its effectively a 25 second cool down 80k heal, and pom will still be one of the strongest talents we have regardless of the 1.7 second activation time on pom ring

forcing us to choose between pom and blazing speed is a nerf compared to what we choose between now, but its obviously what they were intending to do, solves a perceived pvp problem and a pve problem with one change

also can anyone on the ptr see if the entire effect from temporal shield is undispelable, or just the ripples? if its only the ripples (the proc heal) then its a nerf more then a buff, since it makes the actual temporal shield effect that procs the heal over the 4 seconds easier to dispel

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 05 February 2013 - 11:00 PM.

[Crawthz]

Dizzeeyo, on 05 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

also can anyone on the ptr see if the entire effect from temporal shield is undispelable, or just the ripples? if its only the ripples (the proc heal) then its a nerf more then a buff, since it makes the actual temporal shield effect that procs the heal over the 4 seconds easier to dispel

Temporal Shield itself is dispellable, Ripples aint.

[Dizzeeyo]

Crawthz, on 05 February 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Temporal Shield itself is dispellable, Ripples aint.

just as useless as it is already vs anything that can purge spam then